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Old 2010-06-01, 04:27   Link #10781
Oliver
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...one more thought about the phones just occurred to me. Yes, I'm being silly.

As long as the actual line is not cut somewhere inaccessible, like the ocean floor, it's trivial to hook up a phone directly to the line bypassing the PBX, unless the PBX also serves as the concentrator, which I think it doesn't. If you're crafty enough, on a pulse dialing line, (which, according to the available graphics showing rotary dialer phones, is probably the kind they have) you can make a call with nothing beyond the headset ripped off a phone by slapping bits of wire together - if you have a whole phone, you just twist the wires and go, no serious technical expertise required.

To actually kill the outside line dead dead so that nobody can make a call from the island even if they think of that, you would need to destroy the equipment on the other end. Basically the only reliable way to do that from the island that I know of involves thousands of volts fed into the line to blow the fuse, (just connecting it to mains power is known not to work) which is neither easy nor safe to do.

I.e. if you're serious about not letting people call the police, you're not going to have an easy time of it.
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Old 2010-06-01, 06:10   Link #10782
Thunder Book
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, in Ep4 there's the long protracted sequence where Battler actually investigates things seriously, examining bodies and making conclusions, though I must say his detection is still lacking a lot even then.
Well, he is drunk at the time.

Really this guy needs to just lay off of the booze.
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Old 2010-06-01, 08:00   Link #10783
Marion
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Well, he is drunk at the time.

Really this guy needs to just lay off of the booze.
Actually, he only becomes drunk later. When he investigates he's still sober and by the time he does drink it's close to midnight on the second day.
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Old 2010-06-01, 08:18   Link #10784
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...one more thought about the phones just occurred to me. Yes, I'm being silly.

As long as the actual line is not cut somewhere inaccessible, like the ocean floor, it's trivial to hook up a phone directly to the line bypassing the PBX, unless the PBX also serves as the concentrator, which I think it doesn't. If you're crafty enough, on a pulse dialing line, (which, according to the available graphics showing rotary dialer phones, is probably the kind they have) you can make a call with nothing beyond the headset ripped off a phone by slapping bits of wire together - if you have a whole phone, you just twist the wires and go, no serious technical expertise required.

To actually kill the outside line dead dead so that nobody can make a call from the island even if they think of that, you would need to destroy the equipment on the other end. Basically the only reliable way to do that from the island that I know of involves thousands of volts fed into the line to blow the fuse, (just connecting it to mains power is known not to work) which is neither easy nor safe to do.

I.e. if you're serious about not letting people call the police, you're not going to have an easy time of it.
How about this? If I remember correctly, in any Episode that the phone lines are cut, no one ever makes an evident phone call the on the first day of the conference. As well, the weather is still calm for a good chunk of the first day, so the sea would still be fairly calm, compared to how it's likely raging during the second day.
If there is an undersea phone line, then the line must surface on the island somewhere where it's easily accessible, like the beach or something similar. So, while the weather is still nice, you could travel down to the beach, cut the lines, head back up and act like nothing happened. Heck, if you've got the guts, you could probably even do this during the early hours of the first night.
And once the second day begins, the weather's too rough for anyone to consider going anywhere near the beach, so there's no way to check to see if the line's intact down there.
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Old 2010-06-01, 12:21   Link #10785
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
If there is an undersea phone line, then the line must surface on the island somewhere where it's easily accessible, like the beach or something similar. So, while the weather is still nice, you could travel down to the beach, cut the lines, head back up and act like nothing happened.
It's possible, though you'd very probably need that bolt cutter -- the cable is bound to be armored.

Meanwhile, I think the PBX itself has to be in the servants room somewhere or close by. In Ep5, Genji is shown routing incoming calls manually multiple times and calling Natsuhi to do it, and a servant on duty taking the call and then deciding where to route it is apparently the usual way to deal with incoming calls. While it is possible to do that purely by dialing extension numbers to control the PBX remotely, generally that functionality only became widely available with digital PBXes which required DTMF dialing -- while the phones inside the mansion appear to be rotary pulse dialers. In this case someone has to be next to the PBX to route the call. The only way someone always is involves it being next to the servant duty station.
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Old 2010-06-02, 08:23   Link #10786
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It's possible, though you'd very probably need that bolt cutter -- the cable is bound to be armored.
Well, considering the Ushiromiya family seems to have a wide assortment of tools kept throughout the mansion grounds (hatchet, wire cutters, rifles, stakes...), I'm sure a pair of bolt cutters isn't too farfetched.

Quote:
Meanwhile, I think the PBX itself has to be in the servants room somewhere or close by. In Ep5, Genji is shown routing incoming calls manually multiple times and calling Natsuhi to do it, and a servant on duty taking the call and then deciding where to route it is apparently the usual way to deal with incoming calls. While it is possible to do that purely by dialing extension numbers to control the PBX remotely, generally that functionality only became widely available with digital PBXes which required DTMF dialing -- while the phones inside the mansion appear to be rotary pulse dialers. In this case someone has to be next to the PBX to route the call. The only way someone always is involves it being next to the servant duty station.
With my limited phone hardware knowledge, wouldn't this mean if the PBX is cut off, no incoming phone calls could be received, and no outgoing calls could be made?

I don't really understand the need to doubt the phone line are out. We're told several times throughout the Episodes that Rokkenjima is cut-off from the rest of the world; this is what allows certain events, like the gold truth confirming Kinzo's body, to work. If the phone lines were operational, it would mean that Rokkenjima is not actually cut-off from the world, and would destroy some crucial events.
So how about this: If Genji lives long enough to see his Task X progress long enough, he cuts-off the island's external phone lines using Technique Y.
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Old 2010-06-02, 10:49   Link #10787
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
With my limited phone hardware knowledge, wouldn't this mean if the PBX is cut off, no incoming phone calls could be received, and no outgoing calls could be made?

I don't really understand the need to doubt the phone line are out.
To be very brief but precise, a Private Branch Exchange (PBX) device is a miniature telephone exchange. The inbound line that goes from the phone company is called 'trunk line' ("trunk"->"branch") and can come in one of multiple different ways and contain multiple distinct 'phone lines' logically or physically, normally turning into one or several actual wire pairs by the time it is fed into the PBX. The other end of the PBX connects multiple endpoint phones -- usually much more than the lines it gets from the trunk -- and pretends those connections are a normal phone line. The PBX does three important things:
  • When a call from outside in arrives, PBX either routes it to a phone where an operator talks to the caller and decides where the call goes next, or plays a message and waits for number tones telling it to do same automatically, or uses any other predefined arrangements like voicemail and doesn't route the call anywhere.
  • When someone inside wants to call, they either dial an internal number (and the PBX connects the two internal endpoints together) or dial an outside line code, and the PBX connects them to the trunk line, so that the phone company can deal with the rest of the numbers being dialed.
  • All phone lines supply power to endpoint phones, though certain phones need more and use an extra mains power supply. The PBX powers all internal phones. It also provides the dialtone when an internal phone is taken off the hook -- you never hear one from the trunk line until you are actually connected to the trunk line. It also causes the internal phones to ring by feeding them ringing current, distinct from the normal power current. (here's some technical information on the details)

This means the following things when picking up the phone on the inside of the system:
  • If you can hear a dialtone, the PBX is working.
  • If you can't hear a dialtone, either the PBX is dead or the line from your phone to PBX is dead but you can't tell which. It tells you nothing about the condition of the trunk line or whether one exists at all.
  • If a phone is ringing, the PBX is working.
  • If the trunk line is damaged, you will hear a dialtone, but upon dialing the dial-out digit, you will not hear the phone company's dialtone inviting you to continue dialing, and further dialing will produce no results.

This whole mess is probably not important except one thing. Even if the trunk line is cut, someone has to be lying for these reasons:
  • In Ep1, Kanon actually picks up the phone and hears no dialtone. Either the PBX is dead, or the line to this particular phone is cut or Kanon is lying. Since he could have picked up any random phone in any room, we can probably dismiss the version that a particular phone endpoint is disabled.
  • If the trunk line is cut, but the PBX is powered on, all internal calls will still connect and picking up the phone will result in a dialtone from the PBX. Dialing an outside line digit will simply fail, but if you just dial an internal number, you won't even notice the trunk is out.
  • It is fairly clear the servant on duty in the mansion is meant to play the operator for the branch. If the PBX has a power switch, they've probably been instructed not to touch it and would notice someone did. A PBX is not a device where you can just pull a random component out and then expect it to work again when you put it back in, so it's hard to disable it covertly in a fixable manner.
In most cases, the servants seem to convince everyone that the entire PBX is irrevocably disabled -- Genji comes to fetch Natsuhi personally instead of calling her in Ep1, for example. Yet later on, internal phone connections occur which means the PBX is working. Cutting the trunk line is easy enough -- and the way you described allows to do it covertly from anyone on the island without worrying anyone might be clever enough to hook a phone up directly -- but if any phone on the island rings or gets a dialtone at all, the PBX is still in working order, and whoever convinces people internal lines do not work or does not hear a dialtone is lying.
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Old 2010-06-02, 17:59   Link #10788
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Is it possible to rig it so that no dialtone is heard, but internal lines still work? A lot of phones I've worked around or with don't have a dialtone until you hit the external line button. If that were possible, couldn't a person just lie and say the phone didn't work, offer it to someone else, and have them "confirm" it because there's no dialtone?

Granted, this is 1986 telephone technology, which I doubt ryukishi is really up on, but he clearly seems to be doing something with the phones, even if it's just people lying about their operational status.

I actually think it more reasonable they were never disabled internally at all, in any episode.
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:47   Link #10789
KnightOfTwo
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Most likely they were disabled externally however were left working internally. As most instances of the status of the phone being stated concerns contacting the police. Whether it works internally or not is usually irrelevant to everyone as they tend to group together so they have no need to use the phones. Severing the phones internally would actually serve no purpose so why bother even doing it?
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Old 2010-06-02, 20:02   Link #10790
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Is it possible to rig it so that no dialtone is heard, but internal lines still work? A lot of phones I've worked around or with don't have a dialtone until you hit the external line button. If that were possible, couldn't a person just lie and say the phone didn't work, offer it to someone else, and have them "confirm" it because there's no dialtone?
In theory, yes. On a modern PBX which is nothing more than a specialised computer anyway, you can often play a WAV file as your dialtone if you want to, turn off the dialtone, whatever. But the older the PBX is, the more laborous the task becomes if a dialtone is provided in the first place - going back in time, it starts with recording it from a source according to the manual onto flash memory, proceeds to rom hacking, and ends with cutting a sine wave generator circuit out in a very precise spot. None of that is easy. Considering that it's likely to be US Army surplus equipment from the occupation period like the radio, I'd say no chance. If the dialtone is not provided in the first place, Kanon has no reason to expect one in Ep1.

Mind you, if you can have someone 'confirm' that the PBX is dead by showing them a specific endpoint phone and expect it to stick for the rest of the event, why don't you just pull it out of the wall socket before you do? You can plug it back in after when you need that phone.
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Old 2010-06-02, 23:39   Link #10791
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Originally Posted by KnightOfTwo View Post
Most likely they were disabled externally however were left working internally. As most instances of the status of the phone being stated concerns contacting the police. Whether it works internally or not is usually irrelevant to everyone as they tend to group together so they have no need to use the phones. Severing the phones internally would actually serve no purpose so why bother even doing it?
It makes sense for the "fake murder mystery" thing. It's useless for the real murders for the reason you just stated. In fact, having phones advantages people who are away from the main group.

So it's possible that people still think it's an act before that point... and by the time they realize it isn't, everyone left is grouped up.
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Old 2010-06-03, 08:35   Link #10792
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
To be very brief but precise-
*snip*
This is brief?

Quote:
In most cases, the servants seem to convince everyone that the entire PBX is irrevocably disabled -- Genji comes to fetch Natsuhi personally instead of calling her in Ep1, for example. Yet later on, internal phone connections occur which means the PBX is working. Cutting the trunk line is easy enough -- and the way you described allows to do it covertly from anyone on the island without worrying anyone might be clever enough to hook a phone up directly -- but if any phone on the island rings or gets a dialtone at all, the PBX is still in working order, and whoever convinces people internal lines do not work or does not hear a dialtone is lying.
I just thought of something. In each Episode, the condition the phones are in changes. In Episode 1, absolutely no phone calls are made for most of the Episode, but we get a phone call from Maria after the servants and her leave the study. If the phone lines can be disconnected to serve the appearence of being out, can't they be reconnected? Considering Genji, the suspect for sabotaging the phones, is now free to wander the mansion, he could reconnect the lines, now that the real murders are happening.
In Episode 2... I can't remember Episode 2 all that well. I know he surives, so what should happen is that the phone lines go out.
In Episode 3, Genji dies (or "dies," depending on your theory) early on, so the phones are intact for the entire Episode. The same goes for Episodes 4 and 5, and I haven't played Episode 6, so I can't make a judgement on it.
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Old 2010-06-03, 12:44   Link #10793
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
This is brief?
I wrote three times more originally but deleted it, so yes, this is brief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I just thought of something. In each Episode, the condition the phones are in changes. In Episode 1, absolutely no phone calls are made for most of the Episode, but we get a phone call from Maria after the servants and her leave the study. If the phone lines can be disconnected to serve the appearence of being out, can't they be reconnected?
They can be, both as the whole PBX and on a socket by socket basis. But since you brought up Ep1 again, here's an extra puzzle:

Maria says that Genji locked the door from inside the room. But Genji has just relinquished his keyring to Natsuhi at this point so he could not do that -- instead Kumasawa would have to, or he would need to have Kumasawa's keys.

If Genji is the one disabling the PBX, he also probably has to be the one fixing it before he dies in the parlor, and it's somewhere aound the servant room, which defaults to being locked - so he can't get in there without Kumasawa's keys either.

So, does Maria lie, or is Kumasawa directly supporting Genji in this particular matter?
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:34   Link #10794
Rua
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Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but have any theories involving the sedatives Rosa brought to the island been made yet? I feel as if this plays a very key role especially considering how there seem to be many faked deaths at this stage of the story.
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:50   Link #10795
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I remember at a certain point that they were discussed, but since they were sedatives meant for children it was pointed out that you need a lot of them to cause any relevant effect on adults and a lot more than a single bottle to cause death.

Personally I don't think this is really relevant, because the fake serial murder is certainly something that was planned in advance, therefore it would be impractical for the mastermind to rely on items brought by the guests rather than preparing them himself, especially considering that there are a lot of better products than children sedatives to use.
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:24   Link #10796
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Well, the sedatives have to play some sort of role in episode 3. Somebody else emptied the bottle for some reason.
Obvious explanations:
a) Person who did so was using the drugs for his / her own purpose.
b) Person who did so wanted merely to deprive Rosa / Maria of the sedatives.

Also, in Episode 2, Battler is sleeping around the point when Genji knocks on the parlor door. This in spite of the fact that he slept a good deal of Oct 4 and woke up on his own on Oct 5. I think Rosa drugged him when making his meal.
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Old 2010-06-03, 15:00   Link #10797
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Well it is true that there's always someone that dozes off before sleeping time up to episode5

Ep1 - Rosa
Ep2 - Battler
Ep3 - Eva
Ep4 - Maria
Ep5 - Rosa
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Old 2010-06-03, 15:00   Link #10798
Rua
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I remember at a certain point that they were discussed, but since they were sedatives meant for children it was pointed out that you need a lot of them to cause any relevant effect on adults and a lot more than a single bottle to cause death.

Personally I don't think this is really relevant, because the fake serial murder is certainly something that was planned in advance, therefore it would be impractical for the mastermind to rely on items brought by the guests rather than preparing them himself, especially considering that there are a lot of better products than children sedatives to use.
Ah, alright. The only reason it really meant anything to me is that a) they're the only mention of named drugs on the island, b) though normally relying on someone else possibly bringing something like that would be a bit silly, Rosa would be pretty consistent over the years just based on Maria's behaviour and... 3) It would be quite interesting if that is how the culprit was able to kill both Krauss and Natsuhi via strangulation.

It's been a while since I played through Ep 3 and I'm pretty sure I'm thinking more along the lines of 'And Then There Were None', but they'd really just need to slow the two down and not necessarily put them to sleep? ... Yeah. It's very, very unlikely.

Though I suppose the one thing I was considering is that if sedatives were used by the culprit in a 'faked' death for realism. ... Once again, I'm really reaching here. Ah well, I was planning on rereading everything from Ep 1 anyway.
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Old 2010-06-03, 16:17   Link #10799
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
They can be, both as the whole PBX and on a socket by socket basis. But since you brought up Ep1 again, here's an extra puzzle:

Maria says that Genji locked the door from inside the room. But Genji has just relinquished his keyring to Natsuhi at this point so he could not do that -- instead Kumasawa would have to, or he would need to have Kumasawa's keys.

If Genji is the one disabling the PBX, he also probably has to be the one fixing it before he dies in the parlor, and it's somewhere aound the servant room, which defaults to being locked - so he can't get in there without Kumasawa's keys either.

So, does Maria lie, or is Kumasawa directly supporting Genji in this particular matter?
Was the servant's room locked at this time? I can't remember if it was or not, so I just suspected it being unlocked.
And for the parlour, I always thought the doors were lockeable from the inside of the room without a key. If not, it's not too hard for Genji to borrow Kumasawa's key. As the head furniture of the family, he'd probably prefer to take their safety into his own hands, and would lock the room of the door to protect Maria. I don't think there's any reason to think Genji went straight to the parlour, so it isn't hard for him to make a detour and fix the phone lines.

On the topic of the child sedatives, I use them in my Rosa Culprit Theory. When the adults are preparing to fake their own deaths, Rosa substitutes the drugs used by the rest of the "victims" (Shannon could also have substitutes, if she is an accomplice) with Maria's sedatives. This allows her to pretend to be knocked out, providing her with ample time to kill and move the others.
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Old 2010-06-03, 17:21   Link #10800
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No, I'm referring to Battler sleeping on Oct. 5 in Episode 2. (Battler and Jessica are also mentioned as sleeping on and off late Episode 3.)

By comparison, in Episode 1, Maria wakes him up early on Oct 5, and he's not mentioned as sleeping after that.
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