AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-11, 14:32   Link #10921
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well one thing is to be a liar one thing is to be good liar.

Most kids lie, very few of them are good at that.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-11, 14:44   Link #10922
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well one thing is to be a liar one thing is to be good liar.

Most kids lie, very few of them are good at that.
Well I wouldn't disregard her from being a good liar completely. I grew up with a younger brother who was an expert at it. Some kids use it as a defense mechanism against their parents.

With Maria though I see her more of getting joy out of keeping secrets and feeling sort of superior because she knows something other people don't. She might also be lying because she's been lied to by Beatrice. This would make the lies she tells unintentional since she thinks what she's saying is the truth when it's really only half true or a bold faced lie.

She might also lie to protect what she believes when she can't explain away someone else's argument.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-11, 17:28   Link #10923
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Maria can lie. In fact Maria does lie; we have been shown this.

"Beatrice turned into gold butterflies and flew through the cracks in the door"

...I HIGHLY doubt that actually happened.

And on the note about Maria in ep 1. When the cousins first wake up in the morning. Maria is looking around for Rosa. And it seems pretty frantic. But then when she hears about the deaths. She doesn't seem to care at all. That is a huge change. First she is worried cause she can't find her mom, and then later she is doesn't care that she was told that her mom died.
Wait... I thought we need to go over Maria's scenes again. If you look at the candy under the cup in EP6, one possible explanation is that someone performed the trick for her so that she would view it as real magic. She is the 'Magic' observer.

My first instinct if she said something like "Beatrice turned into gold butterflies and flew through the cracks in the door" is that she is lying. But there exists the possibility that she doesn't think she's lying; she really does think she observed something like that.

Doesn't Maria insist that she always tells the truth somewhere in the earlier episodes? I forgot... 8)


Anyways, if this is true then if she does see something magic like then we should be immediately suspicious of the people around her. If it always turns out to be the same person (i.e. George or Shannon... ) then technically speaking we have some evidence.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-11, 18:41   Link #10924
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Doesn't Maria insist that she always tells the truth somewhere in the earlier episodes? I forgot... 8)
Actually Jessica and Battler insist that. Maria doesn't really talk about herself much at all.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-11 at 20:09.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 02:04   Link #10925
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
I want to add some thoughts I've been having about Kanon lately. Unfortunately not everything has been worked out but I think it's important that I say this now.

I've been thinking back on the lines that there is a Kanon conspiracy in somewhat the same vein as Kinzo and Beatrice. That rather than someone with Dual Identity, we have a conspiracy probably by the servants to pretend he 'exists,' whatever that means.

Ok so back in EP4, after Lambdadelta declared that he didn't die in an accident I came up with a list of ways to die:
1. Murder
2. Accident
3. Suicide
4. Natural Death
5. Still Alive

So we suspect that Kanon is still alive and walking around in a lot of the episodes. But also there's red text to say that he doesn't exist or is dead or something. Our way of thinking that he can die but still move around is where someone else stops being 'Kanon' and becomes someone else.

But then I got to thinking about the Author Theory. Kanon is not a real person. Even if you don't accept the Author Theory, Kanon is still some kind of piece/koma of Beatrice on the gameboard. So can 'characters' die in more ways than real people do?

6. Goes out of character; breaks the 'canon' of the story.
? is this a possibility?


So this got me thinking. A conspiracy to pretend that Kanon exists. What if Kanon 'dies' when they decide that he does something grossly out of character? Like in EP1 he kills Nanjo and Kumasawa, kill Jessica in EP2, kill Nanjo in EP3, but come back into character temporarily to save Jessica and.... not sure what happened in EP4 but he died too. In EP5 he didn't do very much but in EP6 he died in the closet. Maybe he did something grossly out of character like rescue Battler or he was sent to kill Erika.

If Kanon is like a manipulated puppet, killing for those who deem it necessary (I'm thinking of the servants here... ? or George and Shannon?) then that killing is technically not really what he was meant to do in the first place. Someone appropriated 'him' somehow and killed his 'personality' by making him do bad things.


For example if Natsuhi and co. decided to suddenly declare that Kinzo started wearing sunglasses and singing a heavy metal song (*cough*) then Kinzo 'dies' because those lies of theirs just start becoming totally unbelievable. (At least in the game with the other characters. Totally believable on Youtube though. ) Or if Beatrice suddenly turned into a moe-moe love slave for Battler (in EP6)... a rather unbelievable turn of events then she 'dies' too. And some fanciful fantasy scenes are needed to repair the damage.

So they all believe Kanon is a good guy; his characterization so far leads us to say that there's no way he would kill Jessica... or kill Kumasawa. Maybe Nanjo. 8) But someone does try to pin the murders on him and so that's why he 'dies.' And of course some fanciful fantasy scenes are needed to repair the damage.


Here are some further thoughts.
1. Kanon is called Yoshiya -> Yeshua. He is used as the scapegoat or sacrifice for the sins of others. Someone else is doing the killing but 'Kanon' is being blamed in a collective conspiracy. i.e. in EP2.
2. Kanon is called 'Canon' after all. If you swerve from the agreed upon characterization you've accidently exposed his non-existence.
3. We've had a little discussion about whether Piece-Battler was in character or not by Bernkastel and Dlanor... maybe being in character is important.

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. At the very least I thought the reveal about him being called 'Yeshua' was a very strong hint that he is some kind of sacrifice. Indeed he DID sacrifice his life and love for Shannon and Battler in EP6. Which is why I theorized that he will remain 'dead' in EP7, like how Sakutarou remains 'alive' in EP6.

So.. what if this sacrifice is more than just in the fantasy scenes. Kanon was 'sacrificed' in some way, not physically but... spiritually? emotionally?

So.. what do you guys think? I think we can think more on this line...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 02:58   Link #10926
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
For example if Natsuhi and co. decided to suddenly declare that Kinzo started wearing sunglasses and singing a heavy metal song (*cough*) then Kinzo 'dies' because those lies of theirs just start becoming totally unbelievable. (At least in the game with the other characters. Totally believable on Youtube though. ) Or if Beatrice suddenly turned into a moe-moe love slave for Battler (in EP6)... a rather unbelievable turn of events then she 'dies' too. And some fanciful fantasy scenes are needed to repair the damage.
I'm afraid that the thought, while intriguing, doesn't work very well, because in the end it translates into "OMG, dead Kinzo walking around in sunglasses and singing a heavy metal song!"

Basically, if any character on the board makes a decision that "Kanon has executed an illegal operation and will be closed." other characters may not share it, i.e. Kanon may be alive for one character and dead for another one -- and in fact will be until the information propagates across the network. Since nobody ever made two inverse red statements about Kanon's life or death status at an appropriate time, i.e. "Kanon is dead." and "Kanon is not alive.", which would rule out the collectively maintained illusion in any reasonable sense, this approach is still possible -- but you still need to account for the propagation.

Also, "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" seems to rule out any single character from making that decision, since it would be effectively "killing" him. You have to relegate this decision to the Author, and then Kanon effectively becomes no different from any other character on the board.

Characters, as opposed to material people, are bloody resilient creatures, and much harder to kill for good. Another approach is possible, in which Kanon has died well before the game started like Kinzo, and is only a character from then on. Unfortunately, the red "Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim." makes that problematic, since if Kanon died before the game started, being the chronologically 9th victim would be impossible and we're left with twisting red to fit.

There is one interesting loophole, though. Characters do not have to have a body, but they can be embedded in a medium. I.e. if Kanon is a character within a literary work within a game board, for example, written into Maria's diary, he can die if the only copy containing him is eradicated.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 03:41   Link #10927
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
If Kanon is a literary character on the game board (in every game), doesn't that contradict the red that says absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board?
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:00   Link #10928
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Kanon is a literary character on the game board (in every game), doesn't that contradict the red that says absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board?
Kanon would still be a human. Just a fictional human.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:07   Link #10929
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Basically, if any character on the board makes a decision that "Kanon has executed an illegal operation and will be closed." other characters may not share it, i.e. Kanon may be alive for one character and dead for another one -- and in fact will be until the information propagates across the network. Since nobody ever made two inverse red statements about Kanon's life or death status at an appropriate time, i.e. "Kanon is dead." and "Kanon is not alive.", which would rule out the collectively maintained illusion in any reasonable sense, this approach is still possible -- but you still need to account for the propagation.
Wait, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that on the gameboard the people responsible (this is still hypothetical) for the Kanon conspiracy decide to act Kanon out of character. And this allows the Meta-World to declare him 'dead.' Once he's 'dead' or 'out of character' he can do 'out of character' things like kill people. I don't know of what mechanism would allow misbehaving gameboard pieces to be declared 'dead' though. We must have had some kind of hint by now if you could do that.

I'm not too hot on this idea either but I feel like Kanon's situation is something very similar to this. We need another analogy or something.


The main observation from EP1 and 2 is that Kanon can be declared dead somewhere yet continue to act. Although we don't really see him act most of the time, we have guesses that he acts and we have lies claiming that he acted. So, we need something to allow us to fit this situation...

Maybe I should break this down by episode:

Episode 1 - Kanon IS declared dead by Nanjo on the gameboard and everyone accepts this potential lie, but in red text it's declared that no one could kill him. Kanon then may have committed the last murders of Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa.

Episode 2 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard since his body (and even his blood) was not found but Gouda, Genji and Shannon lie about seeing him kill Nanjo and Kumasawa with a magic sword. Kanon was declared dead in the meta-world however.

Episode 3 - Kanon IS declared dead by the parents who found him, but then is the best candidate to kill Nanjo in the end and simply walk into the room and lead Jessica out.

Episode 4 - ????

Episode 5 - Kanon's movements are unknown. Not declared dead in either world.

Episode 6 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard but was somehow able to escape and rescue Battler. After that he is declared dead in the Meta-World.


The pattern I see is:

1. Kanon is normal at first.
2. Something triggers Kanon.
3. Kanon goes rogue and starts killing people or doing strange things.

So for example these theories could fit this pattern:
- Kanon is a robot. Gouda trips and knocks him over, activating his Kill All Humans circuits. (Breaks Knox rules. heh.)
- Kanon has been hypnotized to kill under orders by George and he turns it on during the conference. (Breaks the Knox rules... or does it? I know hypnosis doesn't work like that in reality though.)
- Kanon is an alien sent to observe the Ushiromiyas... if he doesn't like what he finds he kills them all.


---> Hey wait.. Kanon is shown in magic scenes of early episodes to be a 'spy' for Kinzo, right? Hmmm...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:08   Link #10930
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Kanon is a literary character on the game board (in every game), doesn't that contradict the red that says absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board?
I have to agree with Thunder Book on this one. I don't have a reason to deny Kanon's existence, and personally, I like Kanon. So unless the games force me intp a situation where I have to delete Kanon (which they haven't yet), I won't.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:12   Link #10931
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kanon would still be a human. Just a fictional human.
I'm sorry if I come off as rude, but are you serious?
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:14   Link #10932
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Kanon is a literary character on the game board (in every game), doesn't that contradict the red that says absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board?
I always thought that "this game board" meant EP3 only.

Because each Episode has a different game board, and Eva-Beatrice was talking about "this one" (which at the time was EP3.)
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:21   Link #10933
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
But why would we have a "fictional Kanon" (Funny as hell pun by the way) in some episodes and not others?
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:24   Link #10934
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Wait, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that on the gameboard the people responsible (this is still hypothetical) for the Kanon conspiracy decide to act Kanon out of character. And this allows the Meta-World to declare him 'dead.' Once he's 'dead' or 'out of character' he can do 'out of character' things like kill people. I don't know of what mechanism would allow misbehaving gameboard pieces to be declared 'dead' though. We must have had some kind of hint by now if you could do that.
The problem with this is the criterion Meta-World may use to define Kanon as 'dead', or rather, the fact that we can't reliably tell what this criterion is, i.e. which characterisation of Kanon is actually canon. Kanon's characterisation in the beginning of Ep1 is very thin, and yet he goes 'dead' right after his moment of glory which would add to it the most. In fact, Kanon's character seems to be defined most by the way he dies in every particular episode, and he usually dies defying Beatrice.

Kanon's situation is very likely to be in some way abnormal, but I'm afraid that's not it yet. Sounds like it can be close though, it feels intuitively in some way fitting but the logic does not support this well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So for example these theories could fit this pattern:
- Kanon is a robot. Gouda trips and knocks him over, activating his Kill All Humans circuits. (Breaks Knox rules. heh.)
- Kanon has been hypnotized to kill under orders by George and he turns it on during the conference. (Breaks the Knox rules... or does it? I know hypnosis doesn't work like that in reality though.)
- Kanon is an alien sent to observe the Ushiromiyas... if he doesn't like what he finds he kills them all.
Actually, while all of these are rather silly, the idea that something we don't see triggers Kanon to switch sharply between radically different modes of behaviour which leads to his 'death' (or simply death) is definitely not, regardless of his existence or nonexistence.

I'm not sure what could it be, but in every case it would have to strike the exact same pressure point, possibly from different directions.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:26   Link #10935
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
You know what. I think Kanon is just a name of an actual cannon on the island now. His death scenes are just him breaking and his disappearing corpse is just him being stolen. Do you like my theory?

Hey it works for the Stake Sisters.
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:35   Link #10936
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
But why would we have a "fictional Kanon" (Funny as hell pun by the way) in some episodes and not others?
The only time he really needs to be fictional is in the Episodes where he goes missing. There seems to be a trend in his life or death status in each Episode.

This is what the characters on the gameboard are led to believe about Kanon:

EP1:
Alive
Dead (but the red denies that possibility)

EP2:
Alive
Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway)

EP3: (this is the humans-only gameboard)
Alive
Dead (his death is also confirmed in red)

EP4:
Alive
Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway)

EP5:
Alive
Unknown (the game ends too early)

EP6:
Alive
Unknown (the TIPS screen doesn't update, and he just vanishes)

He always starts out alive, and seems to alternate each Episode between "dead" and "missing". There needs to be an explanation for:
-why he didn't die in EP1
-why his dead corpse is missing in EP2 and EP4
-why he did die in EP3
-what happened to him in EP5 and EP6

Even if EP3 is a humans-only gameboard, it's also the only gameboard in which Kanon's corpse is known and confirmed to be dead. So he can still be "fictional" in the other Episodes.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:36   Link #10937
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Maybe I should break this down by episode:

Episode 1 - Kanon IS declared dead by Nanjo on the gameboard and everyone accepts this potential lie, but in red text it's declared that no one could kill him. Kanon then may have committed the last murders of Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa.

Episode 2 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard since his body (and even his blood) was not found but Gouda, Genji and Shannon lie about seeing him kill Nanjo and Kumasawa with a magic sword. Kanon was declared dead in the meta-world however.

Episode 3 - Kanon IS declared dead by the parents who found him, but then is the best candidate to kill Nanjo in the end and simply walk into the room and lead Jessica out.

Episode 4 - ????

Episode 5 - Kanon's movements are unknown. Not declared dead in either world.

Episode 6 - Kanon is NOT declared dead on the gameboard but was somehow able to escape and rescue Battler. After that he is declared dead in the Meta-World.
The thing is, all of these can also work from a "Kanon is alive" point of view.
Episode 1 - Nanjo and Jessica are recruited by Kanon to give the illusion that he is dead, so that he can assist Culprit X behind the scenes in constructing the murders.
Episode 2 - Kanon was killed protecting Jessica, and the mastermind, enraged at the love between the two, separates the couple. Then to surprise the people in the servants room, the culprit "knocks on the door" using Kanon's corpse, and takes the resulting opportunity from the chaos to kill Kumasawa and Nanjo. Shannon and Genji have several different possibilities to why they survive/lie about the magical blade.
Episode 3 - Kanon is declared dead, on the gameboard and in the red. What I believe happened is that Jessica, blind and terrified, heard Kanon's voice leading her on. I simply just refuse to twist the red text in order to get what I want.
However, this is the Episode where I can't explain it from an Existing Kanon point of view.
Episode 4 - I have my doubts that the surviving group actually ended up in the Kuwadorian. But still, Kanon is pronounced as dead, the ninth victim. Sp he is killed, but we don't know when or where. So it's a possibility that he was following the mastermind's orders.
Episode 5 - All we know is that Kanon and Kumasawa broke open Genji's sealed door in the morning. But there's a lot of scenes with him interacting with the other people (though these are all unreliable scenes)
Episode 6 - I've already explained how Kanon could be alive and able to rescue Battler and then cease to exist/die.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:39   Link #10938
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
The only time he really needs to be fictional is in the Episodes where he goes missing. There seems to be a trend in his life or death status in each Episode.

This is what the characters on the gameboard are led to believe about Kanon:

EP1:
Alive
Dead (but the red denies that possibility)

EP2:
Alive
Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway)

EP3: (this is the humans-only gameboard)
Alive
Dead (his death is also confirmed in red)

EP4:
Alive
Missing (but his death is confirmed in red anyway)

EP5:
Alive
Unknown (the game ends too early)

EP6:
Alive
Unknown (the TIPS screen doesn't update, and he just vanishes)

He always starts out alive, and seems to alternate each Episode between "dead" and "missing". There needs to be an explanation for:
-why he didn't die in EP1
-why his dead corpse is missing in EP2 and EP4
-why he did die in EP3
-what happened to him in EP5 and EP6

Even if EP3 is a humans-only gameboard, it's also the only gameboard in which Kanon's corpse is known and confirmed to be dead. So he can still be "fictional" in the other Episodes.
But why!? Why would he be fictional sometimes and not others?
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:46   Link #10939
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
But why!? Why would he be fictional sometimes and not others?
That would go back to the Author Theory. And it would be something that explains his "dead or missing" status in each Episode. I don't think it's a coincidence at all that there are correlations between the odd-numbered Episodes and the even-numbered ones.

Odds: Mystery-themed, Kanon dies, one of the mothers is a red herring, the epitaph is featured prominently

Even: Fantasy-themed, Kanon goes missing, suit-Beatrice appears, Kinzo is "alive" until the very end

Maybe there's actually a connection between all of them. Like X will only happen if Y happens, which will always happen when Z is true. Or something like that, but replace the variables with.... well, variables in the odd/even-numbered Episodes. I think there is a reason for that pattern, and Kanon's "dead or missing" status is one of them.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-12, 04:58   Link #10940
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Well regarding work name "Kanon" I found something interesting about that.

Quote:
http://www.ourladyofvictory.org/Fath...od_noflash.htm
The word "canonization" comes from the Greek word "kanon", which means a standard or measuring rod.
Other than that any character, not just Kanon in particular, being dead because they are acting out of character is rather silly. Partly because they author would have to will it for that to be true, but mostly because we don't know what is in character for anyone once they become a murderer. It's also evident that except maybe in episode 6 there aren't any scenes where Kanon is demonstrated to act out of character. He only acts out of character in theories where he is the murderer, which renders the point completely moot.

I don't find the idea interesting at all. I think it confuses the issue more than it clears it up.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-12 at 05:10.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.