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Old 2010-06-16, 21:50   Link #11161
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Or, you could go for a more complicated explanation, like the person who he broke a promise to, his sin, fell into despair after that, becoming a miserable, hopeless being.
Solving the Epitaph does not grant the family survival from the explosion. However, Battler realising his sin does. In doing so, he shoulders responsiblity for his sin and the well-being of the family, essentially, becoming the next head.
I think how Battler inherits Beatrice's title after he arrives at the truth in Episode 5 is supposed to represent a similar sequence of events that will proceed if he ever realizes his sin in-game. Beatrice is sort of a temporary head while Kinzo is dead and the new head hasn't taken their place yet, it seems. So him inheriting her title is similar to him inheriting the title of Ushiromiya family head.
But, since he has never realized his sin in-game, we get the endgame explosion each Episode.

I've been more on his sin causes side and not the sin is against side.

Basically the causality theory for the sin works like this
  • Battler sins against person A
  • Sinning against person A affects person B
  • Person B affects person C, person D, and so on...
  • Even if Person A may not care anymore (or forgives Battler) Person's B, C, and D, etc are still in affect
  • Therefore if Person A forgives Battler Person B may not. He may even kill Battler because of it.

Now this fits in to some things that Battler and Eva say in the first two episodes.

Battler basically says
  • If Jessica is involved that means George is involved
  • If George is involved that means Shannon is involved
  • If Shannon is involved then are more people involved?

Eva Basically says
  • The servants must be involved because they know the layout of the mansion and they know where all the keys are
  • But if you think about it what does a servant mean? It means someone who serves so therefore don't you think it's natural that if the 19th person does not exist than there must be a handler that manipulate people into carrying out the murders?

And we get more and more statements of how this can be caused
  • Battler: "If this was six years ago I would have made fun of the dejected Jessica I guess I've grown up since then"
  • Battler: Goodbye my fleeting love of six years ago
  • Jessica's statement about causing a fued among girls
  • Hideyoshi's stories about the sengoku era where X causes a fight over the headship
  • Battler to maria: I'll make you my number one follower!
  • I'm sure there are more.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-16 at 22:32.
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:22   Link #11162
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes this is another option.

1) Nobody knew about the explosion, it just happened.

In this case the anthropic principle works. But then you need to explain the letters with the bank accounts.
It fits quite well with my theories, since I think the the letters were just bribes to get people to help with the fake deaths, and the message bottles were props from the planned masquerade, or maybe discarded script versions.
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:42   Link #11163
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Following this since it's birth, I'm pretty sure it's something like this:

Culprit - The one who orchestrates the murders of people before the endgame explosion wipes out any survivors. Not Natsuhi, Eva, Battler, Nanjo or Beatrice.
Bomber - The person who plants the explosive device which inccurs the devastation of the endgame explosion. Possibly, and in my opinion, very likely, Beatrice.
Beatrice - Someone deeply involved in Battler's life on the island six years ago. Almost certainly Jessica or Shannon.
Author(s) - For the sake of the Author Theory; yes, a being which writes one or more of the Episodes.
Actually, I forgot.. Beatrice is now at least two people, right?
- Legend of Beatrice
- Moetrice
- 10th Twilight Beatrice

I'm reluctant to make whoever set up the bomb or the conditions for the 10th twilight 'Beatrice' herself. This is because we've been told that she is an illusion made up from the 'rules' of the game board. In that way, I see it as that someone else can set it up and she claims it is her because she encompasses all the rules.


By the way, I was thinking about this metaphor:
Beatrice as an illusion exists only in the space where there's lack of truth. With real people like you or me, (even though I *am* just a guy on the internet) we exist when we are validated. But for Beatrice, the lack of validation of surrounding truths can give rise to her existence. For example, if there's a Gaap () of knowledge of what happened in a certain event, people can 'validate' Beatrice's existence by claiming she was active. But if ever the truth was exposed, she is damaged.

Spoiler for Long, but interesting. I think.:
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:52   Link #11164
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I believe the conspiracies are the 'objects' which are casting the Beatrice 'shadow.' The 10th Twilight bomb is definitely covering it up allowing the tale of the witch to be told. And I think the First Twilight Fakery, including the servants hyping up Beatrice's existence prior to the game is the 'source of magic' Bernkastel alluded to. Let me put it into a chart:

Rule X <-> Beato the Bomb (or her heart) (last riddle of EP4) <-> 10th Twilight Bomb <-> Bomber conspiracy
Rule Y <-> Beato of Legend <-> First Twilight Fakery + servants pranking <-> Beatrice conspiracy (i.e. all the servants telling Battler she exists.)
Rule Z <-> Moetrice <-> ???? <-> ????
Yes, I think that's generally sound. Personally I would pick up the first twilight fakery and plunk it down in Rule Z, alongside Battler's sin and whatever else is driving it. The fakery script seems to be the part of the board that varies arbitrarily, and at least for the first four games it seems to be targeted squarely at Battler.
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:55   Link #11165
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, I forgot.. Beatrice is now at least two people, right?
- Legend of Beatrice
- Moetrice
- 10th Twilight Beatrice

I'm reluctant to make whoever set up the bomb or the conditions for the 10th twilight 'Beatrice' herself. This is because we've been told that she is an illusion made up from the 'rules' of the game board. In that way, I see it as that someone else can set it up and she claims it is her because she encompasses all the rules.


By the way, I was thinking about this metaphor:
Beatrice as an illusion exists only in the space where there's lack of truth. With real people like you or me, (even though I *am* just a guy on the internet) we exist when we are validated. But for Beatrice, the lack of validation of surrounding truths can give rise to her existence. For example, if there's a Gaap () of knowledge of what happened in a certain event, people can 'validate' Beatrice's existence by claiming she was active. But if ever the truth was exposed, she is damaged.
But there is also a physical person on the gameboard, in Battler's world, who is a Beatrice. Somebody who has convinced Maria that they are the one-thousand-year-old Golden and Eternal Witch. Someone who played with Maria whenever she was alone at the conferences. Someone who has deep connections to Battler from six years ago.
Beatrice also represents the rules of the gameboards and Illusion of the Witch which hovers over Rokkenjima like a bloody mist. In fact, there are many different incarnations of Beatrice, which I suspect is the reason for so many different Beatrices throughout the games.
So the Beatrice that exists as a physical person, one of the seventeen (hopefully Jessica or Shannon, the only female characters around Battler's age) can be the one important to Battler and the one who sets us up the bomb, and another one can be the one which embodies the non-physical aspects of the gameboards.
Where the two blur into each other is still a little hard to determine.
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:55   Link #11166
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Of Rule Z, Bernkastel said that it's like a 'maze-like existence putting haze over the truth.' Can Moetrice be connected to Rule Z? We know Moetrice is connected to the love duel; we know she has something to do with love with Battler. We know they kept saying, "without love it cannot be seen." Is Rule Z something about the love of the characters on the island? Something that makes them do bad, bad things? And if we believe George (and maybe Shannon knows) is the one behind the betrayals and these betrayals are central to Beatrice... then, their love IS causing a huge problem. How is their love causing randomness in the episodes?
By the way, there are a lot of other conspiracies that don't have anything to [/SPOILER]
This is why i believe Shannon, Battler's 1st love, is related to his sin. His sin = a promise to Shannon that he broke, might be related to the phrase i wrote 2 posts above. Coz of breaking it and not coming back to the island for 6 years, Shannon and George started dating.

Reasons why its a promise:
-Piece-Beato calling Piece-Battler a liar on EP5 and he answering "i dont remember i promised you anything".
-Battler finding out the truth right after "dying", thus breaking the promise "i will kill you" made to Beato, also in EP5.

Reasons why its related to love and Shannon:
-Without love, the truth cannot be seen.
-Battler said he was interested in Shannon 6 years ago.
-The phrase Battler told to Shannon 6 years ago. Pretty much saying "i'll be back", however he ddint go back for 6 years and forgot about it.

Reasons why Shannon might not be the culprit:
-In Ep2/3, we keep hearing that Shannon have no regrets. She probably got over it. However, this doesnt mean the promise Battler made to Shannon didnt affect the rest of them. An easy consequence is Shannon getting together with George, and we know this alone affected Eva, Kanon, Jessica at the very least.

Last edited by zRyuu; 2010-06-16 at 23:06.
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Old 2010-06-16, 22:56   Link #11167
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Yes, I think that's generally sound. Personally I would pick up the first twilight fakery and plunk it down in Rule Z, alongside Battler's sin and whatever else is driving it. The fakery script seems to be the part of the board that varies arbitrarily, and at least for the first four games it seems to be targeted squarely at Battler.
Ok.. in that case it's:

Rule X-Beato the Bomb - 10th Twilight Bomb - Bomber conspiracy
Rule Y - Moetrice - ???? - ???? - like the source of magic
Rule Z - Beato of Legend - First Twilight Fakery + servants pranking - Beatrice conspiracy - Like a maze

That does make love the source of magic... which is as cheesy as that sounds makes sense considering Beatrice's love for Maria and how she is an observer for her magic.

And yah, the fakery keeps changing all the time...

I feel so close to a solution. 8)
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:01   Link #11168
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Actually Now that i think about it there are a few things that may aid the bomber if it's deliberate (assuming they and the culprit are the same person and that the bomber isn't Beatrice)
  • When the murders happen people almost always hole themselves up somewhere

    Now if you think about it this MAKES SENSE. Assuming the culprit and the bomber are the same person (and you want them to all die in the explosion): you want to keep them as far away from the Kuwadorian as possible. If everyone is holed up in the guesthouse parlor or Kinzo's room and they are distracted the entire time with a murder scheme they will never think to find the location of the gold and save themselves. Now this is assuming the culprit is not Beatrice because her goal is not to make people experience fear
  • Battler is almost always kept alive until the end

    Only exception I think is episode 6. This is important too since they are killing people one by one around him as he figures out what his sin is supposed to be. Battler makes a reference to a book about this I think. The motive has something to do with Battler this is pretty clear, but it's not clear why exactly yet. Now again it makes sense to keep Battler alive if you want to give him a chance to rectify things.

I know I just got done saying the sin affects Person B and doesn't forgive Battler so I'm being a bit of a hypocrite. But I think these are good explanations too.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:01   Link #11169
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
So the Beatrice that exists as a physical person, one of the seventeen (hopefully Jessica or Shannon, the only female characters around Battler's age) can be the one important to Battler and the one who sets us up the bomb, and another one can be the one which embodies the non-physical aspects of the gameboards.
Where the two blur into each other is still a little hard to determine.
Right. Let me add that to the table:

Rule X - Beato the Bomb - 10th Twilight Bomb - Bomber conspiracy - like Higurashi/all truth covered up
Rule Y - Moetrice - Shannon - ???? - like the source of magic
Rule Z - Beato of Legend - Jessica - First Twilight Fakery + servants pranking - Beatrice conspiracy - Like a maze

We know Moetrice was created by a girl's love for Battler and I think everyone's kinda zeroing in on Shannon as Jessica is his cousin with blonde hair, Rosa is his aunt and Kumasawa is just... old. 8)

That probably leaves Jessica who may have been asked to 'play' Beatrice. And in fact, I thought she was the one 'playing' Beatrice in EP2. But maybe the two take turns when needed, only that Moetrice specifically came from Shannon's feelings.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:02   Link #11170
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok.. in that case it's:

Rule X-Beato the Bomb - 10th Twilight Bomb - Bomber conspiracy
Rule Y - Moetrice - ???? - ???? - like the source of magic
Rule Z - Beato of Legend - First Twilight Fakery + servants pranking - Beatrice conspiracy - Like a maze

That does make love the source of magic... which is as cheesy as that sounds makes sense considering Beatrice's love for Maria and how she is an observer for her magic.

And yah, the fakery keeps changing all the time...

I feel so close to a solution. 8)
Both Ryuukishi and Battler have stated the core of the mysteries is not the solutions to the closed rooms, and have never even mentioned the identity of the culprit as important.
What both of them stress as being crucial to the solution of the mysteries is the identity of Beatrice. Understand this, and everything begins to fall together.
I wonder... could there be some crucial hint in Episode 6 which fits in here? 'Cause that could be our infamous key.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:08   Link #11171
Judoh
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My personal preference is that

Rule X is Higurashi's rule Y. Disaster and the murders always happen and when the seagulls cry there are no survivors

Rule Y is the magic that fuels Beatrice or the culprit, Battler's sin, Lambda has touched it sorta.

Rule Z is indefinite, accomplices and group members constantly change, fake deaths, and conspiracies

Personally though I think how the explosion happened isn't all that important. If we speculate on that I think that's one of the things that drowns you in a sea of clues. The fact that the theory about the explosion was confirmed says the explosion did happen. Who did it will be explained later.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-16 at 23:22.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:15   Link #11172
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok.. in that case it's:

Rule X-Beato the Bomb - 10th Twilight Bomb - Bomber conspiracy
Rule Y - Moetrice - ???? - ???? - like the source of magic
Rule Z - Beato of Legend - First Twilight Fakery + servants pranking - Beatrice conspiracy - Like a maze

That does make love the source of magic... which is as cheesy as that sounds makes sense considering Beatrice's love for Maria and how she is an observer for her magic.

And yah, the fakery keeps changing all the time...

I feel so close to a solution. 8)
Whoops, I should have been more clear. I meant something like this:

Rule X: the explosion ("you certainly cannot win")
Rule Y: Beatrice of Legend + servant pranks ("the environment where 'a witch can exist' is itself Beatrice")
Rule Z: Moetrice + first twilight conspiracy ("you are the one of the causes of this tragedy")
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:16   Link #11173
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My personal preference is that

rule X is Higurashi's rule Y. Disaster and the murders always happen and when the seagulls cry there are no survivors

Rule Y is the magic that fuels Beatrice or the culprit, Battler's sin, Lambda has touched it sorta.

Rule Z is indefinite, accomplices and group members constantly change, fake deaths, and conspiracies
Ok cool. So it seems like we've kinda identified Rule Z... surprisingly. I always thought it was some super mysterious 'thing' but it turns out it was all the faking-foolery-funny business going on...

So.. Rule Y...
Rule Y - Moetrice - Shannon - ???? - like the source of magic - Battler's sin - Lambda touched it?

This does seem like some kind of common thread. We do think Battler's sin has something to do with Shannon's lost love. And Shannon (so we think) spawned Moetrice from her feelings. So somehow this love... or lost love? ... coupled with George's love? results in.. magic?

Lambda has touched it? I wonder how... maybe there is some truth to all those yuri drawings of Bern x Lambda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Whoops, I should have been more clear. I meant something like this:

Rule X: the explosion ("you certainly cannot win")
Rule Y: Beatrice of Legend + servant pranks ("the environment where 'a witch can exist' is itself Beatrice")
Rule Z: Moetrice + first twilight conspiracy ("you are the one of the causes of this tragedy")
Oh right.. there does seem to be some kind of consideration for Battler for the first twilight... so maybe that part does belong with Moetrice?
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:21   Link #11174
Raiza Sunozaki
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Lambda has touched it? I wonder how... maybe there is some truth to all those yuri drawings of Bern x Lambda.
*Facedesk*

Entertaining, but this is why I like the idea of Rule Y being the Illusion of the Witch. Assuming the previous game mentioned between Bern and Lambda is Higurashi,
Spoiler for Higurashi plot:

However, if the assumption that Bern and Lambda's previous game was Higurashi is wrong, then this is all moot, and that line becomes very hard to get anything of worth out of.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:22   Link #11175
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Both Ryuukishi and Battler have stated the core of the mysteries is not the solutions to the closed rooms, and have never even mentioned the identity of the culprit as important.
What both of them stress as being crucial to the solution of the mysteries is the identity of Beatrice. Understand this, and everything begins to fall together.
I wonder... could there be some crucial hint in Episode 6 which fits in here? 'Cause that could be our infamous key.
For the record, my "ghost of Beatrice-2" theory hasn't been denied yet.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:29   Link #11176
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Lambda has touched it? I wonder how... maybe there is some truth to all those yuri drawings of Bern x Lambda.
Well I got that from this line in the letter.

Quote:
It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.
If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly not one of us can be called a witch.
I don't think they mean literally touching something. What I think rule Y is is her "magic", or in other words her motivation. Like How Eva's magic was anger.

Of course deception could be the magic too, but being a better liar than Lambdadelta doesn't sound as cool.

Note: that since Lambda understands this (sorta) that might be why Ryu says even she can use the gold. I originally thought rule Y was the mysterious one after episode 5. Since they put so much emphasis on turning the chessboard over on her.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:33   Link #11177
Raiza Sunozaki
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Well I got that from this line in the letter.



I don't think they mean literally touching something. What I think rule Y is is her "magic". Or her motivation. Like How Eva's magic was anger.

Of course deception could be the magic too, but being a better liar than Lambdadelta doesn't sound as cool.
Well, since Beato is in love with Battler, couldn't her magic be love? Considering how the series really pushes the line "Without love, magic cannot be seen.," I find it very likely her magic is built around her love for Battler, as cheesy as it is.
How this fits in with Lambda; I have no clue. Sure, I guess Lambda has love, but it's more like "I want to squeeze you and play with you until your fabric wears thin and your stuffing comes out at the seams" love than "I want to treasure your existence and being and have you do the same for me" love.
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Old 2010-06-16, 23:37   Link #11178
Judoh
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Well, since Beato is in love with Battlerm couldn't her magic be love? Considering how the series really pushes the line "Without love, magic cannot be seen.," I find it very likely her magic is built around her love for Battler, as cheesy as it is.
How this fits in with Lambda; I have no clue. Sure, I guess Lambda has love, but it's more like "I want to squeeze you and play with you until your fabric wears thin and your stuffing comes out at the seams" love than "I want to treasure your existence and being and have you do the same for me" love.
As George would say "their both tsundoras"

Haha I thought that too, but I also think it might be love turned into hate. Or hopelessness, sadness, or tragedy. Love can turn into a lot of different emotions. Like I said earlier though it might be understanding her that is important in rule Y. A broken heart basically. The sin affects different people.

Spoiler for sin:


And piece Battler doesn't understand her. Ronove, Lambda, and Vigilia's respective pieces seem to though.
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Old 2010-06-17, 00:44   Link #11179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
My personal preference is that

Rule X is Higurashi's rule Y. Disaster and the murders always happen and when the seagulls cry there are no survivors

Rule Y is the magic that fuels Beatrice or the culprit, Battler's sin, Lambda has touched it sorta.

Rule Z is indefinite, accomplices and group members constantly change, fake deaths, and conspiracies

Personally though I think how the explosion happened isn't all that important. If we speculate on that I think that's one of the things that drowns you in a sea of clues. The fact that the theory about the explosion was confirmed says the explosion did happen. Who did it will be explained later.
I pretty much agree with you about the rules expect I have different thoughts on rule Z. My thoughts on rule Z are.

Rule Z: The first culpirt will stop all murders (or fake murders) if the epitath is solved. But when the epitath is solved a 2nd killer takes over.
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Old 2010-06-17, 01:00   Link #11180
Judoh
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I pretty much agree with you about the rules expect I have different thoughts on rule Z. My thoughts on rule Z are.

Rule Z: The first culprit will stop all murders (or fake murders) if the epitath is solved. But when the epitath is solved a 2nd killer takes over.
My rule Z doesn't really contradict that idea. That's why I left conspiracy and groups in there. What it does is establish that the culprit selects certain accomplices at random in different episodes. Different factions have different functions. That Culprit's roulette creates noise, which makes it hard to find out who the real culprit is.

So after the epitaph is solved a different faction takes over.
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