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Old 2010-06-21, 11:05   Link #11361
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Conclusion: The discord letter was produced by the same mind behind the first letter and was not connected to the murders.
While this is probably correct, here's something that doesn't quite fit:

The purpose of the First Letter and the Discord Letter are clearly connected to the twilight fakery.

Let us assume that the purpose of either is exactly as written, to motivate people to solve the epitaph. The first letter is absolutely essential then, as it sets up the whole situation. But what about the second one? Logically, it's purpose would be to whip people back onto the planned course of solving the epitaph.

But why, then, does it always come in the same envelope as the magic circle for discord? Discord between the "survivors" is counterproductive for solving anything, so if the author of the letter wanted them to solve it, they wouldn't bundle the magic circle with it, it serves no purpose other than further trolling, and, well, actually causing discord, which you just explained was not the author's intention.

So does this mean that the author of the letters and the director of the fake murders wanted something else entirely rather than getting people to solve the epitaph? What would that be, then?
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Old 2010-06-21, 11:18   Link #11362
rogerpepitone
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Forgot to mention my real difficulty with Shannon writing the letters: Rosa didn't find the discord envelope when she looked through Maria's bag, and Shannon wouldn't give it to Maria after finding the bodies.

I think that the chapel comes in two parts:
Jessica (probably with Kumasawa's help - Kumasawa disappears for a while before people arrive and mentions the pumpkin-shaped cookies) sets up the food and decorations, gave Maria the key, and possibly wrote "Happy Halloween for Maria" outside. (When they're discussing the letter early the next morning, George thinks it's for the family, but Jessica's comment is a bit more ambiguous; I read it as Jessica knew it was something fun for Maria.) It was supposed to be fun and innocent.

I can't see Jessica as being innocently involved with any corpses, fake or not. Why put them at something meant for Maria? (Besides, I don't think anybody present there could mistake the smell of corpses.)
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Old 2010-06-21, 11:53   Link #11363
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Forgot to mention my real difficulty with Shannon writing the letters: Rosa didn't find the discord envelope when she looked through Maria's bag, and Shannon wouldn't give it to Maria after finding the bodies.
Rosa was the one who "realized" that the chapel was a closed room, so she might be in on it. There'd be no reason to announce its presence in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I think that the chapel comes in two parts:
Jessica (probably with Kumasawa's help - Kumasawa disappears for a while before people arrive and mentions the pumpkin-shaped cookies) sets up the food and decorations, gave Maria the key, and possibly wrote "Happy Halloween for Maria" outside. (When they're discussing the letter early the next morning, George thinks it's for the family, but Jessica's comment is a bit more ambiguous; I read it as Jessica knew it was something fun for Maria.) It was supposed to be fun and innocent.

I can't see Jessica as being innocently involved with any corpses, fake or not. Why put them at something meant for Maria? (Besides, I don't think anybody present there could mistake the smell of corpses.)
Maria helped write the scenario, and was fully expecting the corpses to be there. Jessica would happily go along with it in this situation.

Furthermore, these are six people who were planning to be discovered as fake corpses in the morning. Why would they go to the chapel at midnight and wait for six hours when they could just gather there a little before dawn? And if they died as recently as an hour or two before they were discovered, there wouldn't be any stench.
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Old 2010-06-21, 11:55   Link #11364
Sentou
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I can't quite imagine a scenario where Jessica would intend to set up a fake birthday party in episode 2. After all, if Jessica was setting up a fun surprise for Maria involving fake corpses, she'd surely tell everyone about it after discovering that people really died.

If Jessica is involved in any of the twilights, in any of the episodes, It would be for the purpose of helping the Witch's side. I still do not think she's a villain, though.
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Old 2010-06-21, 12:18   Link #11365
TTR
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One thing that has always got to me was the way the Beatrice says the red about the 6 people in the church in EP2.

If I recall correctly, the revised (but still means the same thing) version of the red is:

生きていたか死んでいたかはさておき、6人は確かに扉から入った。

(Leaving the fact of whether they were alive or dead aside, six people had without a doubt entered through the door)

In both the anime AND the book, they are referred to as "6人" or just "six people."

How does the killer get in? Is the killer part of the six? Now, because only siblings are dead the first twilight in EP1, I don't think I can tie this to Shkanon, HOWEVER we still can't forget the fact the Beato remains REALLY REALLY vague in this. Does the 6 people somehow include the killer? Also, if not, then does the red apply to the culprit or not? Did the culprit enter the Chapel? How?

I guess you could say "those six people" are implied through the context. However, I still feel funny about it :/
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Old 2010-06-21, 14:30   Link #11366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Let us assume that the purpose of either is exactly as written, to motivate people to solve the epitaph. The first letter is absolutely essential then, as it sets up the whole situation. But what about the second one? Logically, it's purpose would be to whip people back onto the planned course of solving the epitaph.

But why, then, does it always come in the same envelope as the magic circle for discord? Discord between the "survivors" is counterproductive for solving anything, so if the author of the letter wanted them to solve it, they wouldn't bundle the magic circle with it, it serves no purpose other than further trolling, and, well, actually causing discord, which you just explained was not the author's intention.

So does this mean that the author of the letters and the director of the fake murders wanted something else entirely rather than getting people to solve the epitaph? What would that be, then?
Flip that sucker over. Crackpot theory:

Someone always solves the epitaph. However, we do not always find out about it for some reason (such as the independent killer killing them first). Only Eva and Battler do so in sufficient circumstances to publicize their finding. However, there is evidence of it being possible for others, such as Rosa seemingly discovering it right after Eva, or the gold bars in ep2.

Solving the epitaph is actually the trigger for the explosion. Someone wants to do everything possible to prevent anyone from solving it.


This would work with a Kinzo Bomber theory. He intended everyone to die, which is why his epitaph was highly publicized. Alternately, it really was intended as a gift or headship test, and an unrelated person set up the incident with the discovery as a trigger.

Granted, this can't entirely explain why it would happen on midnight of the day everyone was supposed to have already left. What if they grab some gold and head downtown for wild partying? I mean sure they'd come back to a blown up house, but that's about the worst they'd deal with.

It's the timing that sticks in my craw. It has to be a very recent event. Recent enough to know everyone would not be leaving Sunday morning. They have to be sure Kawabata's unlikely to come, and if we believe him in ep4 it was an entirely personal decision on his part not to risk the storm when he knows he was competent to do so. So nobody influenced him not to come. But what if he did?
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Old 2010-06-21, 14:41   Link #11367
Judoh
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This is why I didn't get why people had a problem with the killing still happening in episodes 5 after the epitaph is solved. I thought episode 2 was proof that the murders and the disaster always happen regardless of if it's solved or not. Since no one has theorized a reason other than solving the epitaph for why 3 gold bars were found. So if you don't have any other theory for that where is there room to say solving the epitaph stops the murders when we beleive they solved it in episode 2?

Then again Maria doesn't act like she believes it's been solved for some reason even though the gold should be proof.
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Old 2010-06-21, 14:47   Link #11368
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is why I didn't get why people had a problem with the killing still happening in episodes 5 after the epitaph is solved. I thought episode 2 was proof that the murders and the disaster always happen regardless of if it's solved or not. Since no one has theorized a reason other than solving the epitaph for why 3 gold bars were found. So if you don't have any other theory for that where is there room to say solving the epitaph stops the murders when we beleive they solved it in episode 2?

Then again Maria doesn't act like she beleives it's been solved for some reason even though the gold should be proof.
The epitaph was solved by Kanon prior to the family conference. In Episode 2, Shannon shows these three gold bars to the adults as incentive for them to fake their deaths. Because they NEED A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:00   Link #11369
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
The epitaph was solved by Kanon prior to the family conference. In Episode 2, Shannon shows these three gold bars to the adults as incentive for them to fake their deaths. Because they NEED A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW.
Which still means that somebody solved it. Which means the murderer doesn't care if the epitaph is solved or not, therefore there is no betrayer.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:02   Link #11370
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He or she could still be "betraying" the fake murder group, but his/her motive has nothing to do with the epitaph. Since the epitaph is grossly misinterpreted by just about everyone who isn't solving it as an actual riddle, it makes sense from that perspective that the epitaph is just a convenient way to kill.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:16   Link #11371
Judoh
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I've always been of the opinion that the different groups aren't really aware of each other. And "betraying" implies you have to be "allied" with another group in the first place.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:19   Link #11372
Sentou
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I do have to say, I'll be impressed if Ryukushi manages to portray Shannontrice in a good light in episode 7.
As things stand, I just hear ominous latin chanting whenever I think of that maid.

But it is my belief that Piece Beatrice is good.

As for the epitagh.... well, the epitagh may be enough to stop Shannon from killing people, but perhaps Shannon isn't the only problem. We have Rosa, Nanjo, George, and Kyrie, to contend with, although George I am including merely due to his fantasy attitude. A motive for revenge is as strong a motive as a motive for love, and perhaps from the get go Piece Beatrice has allies that joined up with her due to an overlap of goals. Succintly: [COLOR="Blue"]There is more to the murders than a young boy's promise and an old man's delusions.{/COLOR]

Oh, and I thought of another crackpot theory: Besides Virgillia and Rosa the "Black Witch"There are two witches on Rokkenjima. There is the good witch, and the bad witch.


This explains how Beato can be a crazy murdering psycopath and also a force for good. It's based off of the whole "Jessica was Piece Beatrice in episode 4" theory, but perhaps expanded a bit. If Shkanon is here to stay, it can also help explain the many problems Jessica drags into the equation.

In a nutshell: Jessica wasn't lying at all in episode 4. Jessica did see magic, in the same way Kanon and Shannon would see magic. This is because she's nuttier than a crackerjack box.

I'm basing this off of the eternal Jessica paradox that makes me dislike Shkanon. How could Jessica be so close to both of them, and yet do things like encourage Shannon on to George? It's simple, I suppose: She's a fourth piece of the puzzle.

At the end of episode 6, it is said that Piece Beatrice could be a knight, a king, a queen, once she was promoted. An unpromoted piece is a pawn. But a pawn is still a piece. In total, Beatrice can be four pieces.

But anyways: Jessica saw Kanon as Kanon, Shannon as Shannon, and Magic as Magic because she is part of the crazy. If indeed she was Suit Beato in episode 4, the reason she pulled off the role so well is because she IS that role, to an extent

Of course, Meta-Beatrice clearly has memories as Shannon, so I don't know if this works out or not...
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:33   Link #11373
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
If Shkanon is here to stay
Who says it is?

Sure, it's compelling as a theory, but it's certainly not confirmed. Especially with all this great Erika theorycraft going on in the Dawn thread.

I do agree that if Shkanon is, in fact, true, then Jessica has to be in on everything in some fashion and is definitely a Beatrice.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:39   Link #11374
Kaisos Erranon
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Someone always solves the epitaph.
Shouldn't Maria be dying earlier, then?
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:41   Link #11375
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Sentou, there's a lot of "doubletrice" stuff going on, though most of it was tied to Pony Theory. If you isolate it from that, you can easily conclude the presence of two Beatrices. Ep6 practically spells it out for you, and Bern was saying as much all the way back in ep1.

Though we have physical evidence of only one Beatrice, we can't be sure there isn't someone posing as Beatrice (through letters, for instance, but no disguise). And we can't be sure there isn't someone exploiting the Beatrice legend for murders (they would thus be "Beatrice," even if they don't really think they are).
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:41   Link #11376
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Shouldn't Maria be dying earlier, then?
Maria dies in Episode 6 before anyone is shown to have solved the epitaph.

And if the Kanon is Kinzo theory is true, Kanon has solved the epitaph before every game begins. Hell, SOMEONE has to have before every game because of the gold bars in 2.
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:47   Link #11377
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Who says it is?

Sure, it's compelling as a theory, but it's certainly not confirmed. Especially with all this great Erika theorycraft going on in the Dawn thread.

I do agree that if Shkanon is, in fact, true, then Jessica has to be in on everything in some fashion and is definitely a Beatrice.
I do always use "if" with Shkanon. And the end of episode 6 does seem to indicate that Erika is already dead.

But with the Erika is dead theory, one needs the Jessica is Battler theory as well. Which, mind you, could very well be true.

Episode 6 ends with Jessica still in the dark about -SOMETHING- with Kanon. Shannon chatises Kanon for it.

Whatever that may be is not really a big deal at the moment, but the dramatic set up it sets up for is. I think that in episode 7, [if Jessica is innocent in regards to all that occurs around her, she'll be tortured by Bernkastel, climaxing in a denial of her parents At this point in time, I can't see her as not part of the major mystery as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Sentou, there's a lot of "doubletrice" stuff going on, though most of it was tied to Pony Theory. If you isolate it from that, you can easily conclude the presence of two Beatrices. Ep6 practically spells it out for you, and Bern was saying as much all the way back in ep1.

Though we have physical evidence of only one Beatrice, we can't be sure there isn't someone posing as Beatrice (through letters, for instance, but no disguise). And we can't be sure there isn't someone exploiting the Beatrice legend for murders (they would thus be "Beatrice," even if they don't really think they are).
"Doubletrice", catchy name. Kinda like Doublemint gum, except it trolls you. But with that said, there is really only one person who would "pose" as Beatrice on the island that would not be Shannon, and that would be Jessica in episode 4. But I can't see that as merely a "pose". The mannerisms, the looks, the tone, the Beatrice Battler met in episode 4 did not seem like an act.

Last edited by Sentou; 2010-06-21 at 15:54. Reason: adding a response
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Old 2010-06-21, 15:52   Link #11378
Shiro Kaisen
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Episode 6 ends with Jessica still in the dark about -SOMETHING- with Kanon. Shannon chatises Kanon for it.
Kanon is the head of the Ushiromiya family, or would be if he claimed such.
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Old 2010-06-21, 16:04   Link #11379
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Kanon is the head of the Ushiromiya family, or would be if he claimed such.
Your guess is as good as mine. Ah, Kanon would be a good head.

But on second thought, that doesn't quite seem like it'd be rocky towards their relationship and be something that Shannon would really care about Kanon telling to Jessica. In fact, if anything, it'd be a blessing for both Jessica and her parents, Jessica wouldn't run into the problems George ran into with Shannon, and her parents could maintain control of the head.

Man, August 15th can't come soon enough, I am pumped to learn how this all plays out.
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Old 2010-06-21, 16:15   Link #11380
Judoh
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But with the Erika is dead theory, one needs the Jessica is Battler theory as well. Which, mind you, could very well be true.
Not necessarilly. That's only if you beleive the red lowers it to 16 people, which it doesn't specifically say, and there are actually 10 different theories that solve that red that we've discussed.

We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

If you put emphasis on "even if" it means the number is seventeen regardless of whether Erika is introduced or not, which would mean she doesn't exist on the real Rokkenjima like we thought anyway.
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