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Old 2010-06-22, 14:23   Link #11421
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
basically, there is no female character listed at all born within a reasonable misrecognition range.
I can't believe no one's mentioned Asumu yet.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I think a better direction is to get rid of the concept of objective first-person narrative altogether.
But, but, the objective first-person narrator is the Game Master. Remember all the giggling in Ep5? All the really distorted and strange events in Ep4?

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Even though the text is monstrously long, the actual number of characters who's points of view get any screen time has to be limited.
Many of the characters have temporarily narrated the story at least once already.
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Old 2010-06-22, 14:41   Link #11422
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But, but, the objective first-person narrator is the Game Master. Remember all the giggling in Ep5? All the really distorted and strange events in Ep4?
I actually thought that was the culprit narrating in episode 5 since he was basically laughing at Natsuhi and the readers. It totally broke the fourth wall. But i think episode 5 was mostly third person and not first person anyway.
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Old 2010-06-22, 14:48   Link #11423
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But, but, the objective first-person narrator is the Game Master. Remember all the giggling in Ep5? All the really distorted and strange events in Ep4?
...
Many of the characters have temporarily narrated the story at least once already.
Notice that in what I described above, "narrating the story" a "being the character who's point of view is used" are not the same and aren't actually even tied together.

Let me try to put it into a more practical example.

Let's say that I am... say, George, for the sake of this argument. I am not present during the Virgilia/Beatrice battle. I may still be narrating it, but I never saw it. But while the pronoun "I" in this scene may refer to George, the point of view used is actually not that of George. It's that of Maria. But Maria has not been present during this battle either, she never saw it!

Yet the point of view is hers. This is what Maria would remember if she did see it, and wanted to tell of what happened to someone she liked, years later, when time would wash holes in the memory and she would gleefully fill them with fantasy to make it more awesome.

The core idea in this interpretational theory is that Gamemaster actually is not allowed to lie to anyone. They can't convey a knowing lie either, because they simply don't have one at their disposal. But if someone is mistaken, deluded, wishes to see the scene in a different way, leaves holes over the things they don't want to see and fills them with imagination, Gamemaster is allowed to use that, and not someone's factual point of view. Gamemaster in this interpretation is not the author, they're an editor.

Let's call it an Editor Theory.

It's like a multitrack narrative exists, seen from all possible points of view at once, and some of these points of view are highly unorthodox and non-factual, and the Gamemaster jumps between the tracks as they see fit. Like you have eighteen music tapes running in parallel, each of which is playing it's own melody, and someone is trying to play a new melody by switching which tape gets to play to your headphones at any given point, feeding them through delay loops, and otherwise cutting and pasting - but not actually being capable of making a melody from scratch.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:07   Link #11424
Kaisos Erranon
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Okay. I... I like this theory, but it makes my head hurt.

Also it serves no real purpose that I can see. Using an unreliable POV is effectively the same as outright lying.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:30   Link #11425
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay. I... I like this theory, but it makes my head hurt.
Sorry, I tend to have that effect on people.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also it serves no real purpose that I can see. Using an unreliable POV is effectively the same as outright lying.
It is... only if you expect to be just told everything as it was and don't want to take the extra steps, which is what the Gamemaster is trying to make you do. You see, each of these tracks is internally consistent within itself. Each of them describes the world as one specific, internally consistent character would see it, with a specific, predictable distortion, and the known social relationships will be reflected in how other characters are seen.

If it's Maria's point of view, magic will be visible and Beatrice will inspire awe. She is probably not the only character who actually sees it that way, though! If it's Shannon's point of view, George will probably be a hero in a subtle, but very effective way. If it's Kyrie's point of view, Rudolf probably gets to shine. If it's Natsuhi's point of view, things that would dishonour the Ushiromiya family will be conspicuously missing even when they should be present, she doesn't want to see them, and sexual innuendo won't be present either, she runs from it. And someone on the board wants Erika to exist so much that they imagine her being there when she isn't, a magical detective to solve all mysteries.

If any discernible cues actually exist to find the point of switching, it is possible to find out whom most of the points of view initially belonged to, and determine which of these people are sufficiently detached from reality to be called lying to themselves. Once we know which is true, which is a delusion, and which is imagination that someone forgot to turn off.

And there's always a reason to pick a particular point of view to show a scene from. That reason is itself what the Gamemaster-Beatrice wants Battler to understand but cannot express in words, and it probably encodes what she really wants from him. No, it's not really believing in magic and witches.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:33   Link #11426
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Er, wasn't it clear after EP4 that "small golden land" referred to the safe-deposit boxes?
Well... since 07151129 was in the end song of episode 6 it might have a deeper meaning. Probably in combination with the seventh magic circle of the sun since it was written above it.

Nanjo and Maria both mention "talismans" when talking about magic circles.

Quote:
Maria: "It's a magic circle to borrow power from the sun... he who wears it as a talisman shall be able to break free from the bonds of any prison, and receive the power to gain freedom."
Quote:
Nanjo: "It could be a magic square..... the idea that a talisman can reside in a certain form of number play. I believe everyone has heard of the one where adding each of the numbers in each row leads to the same sum"
From the psalms quote though I think It might be a number game the verses or it might refer George himself for being released from "mental bonds" or possibly "financial freedom".

Quote:
Maria: "The word 'bonds' is not limited in it's interpretation to a physical object.. Therefore it does not only hold meaning for people locked up in actual jail. It can also refer to the release from mental bonds such as ties of obligation or inescapable fate."
Quote:
Maria: "Psalms chapter 116, verses 16 and 17. ..... I'll read it for you. 'The lord has freed me from my chains. I will offer to you the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the lord'. ......See?"
Um... I know that thanksgiving is on the fourth Thursday of November so maybe there was a day in the 1980's where thanksgiving was on November 29th?
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:39   Link #11427
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
*snip*
Huh, okay. So you're saying we should look for fake scenes that are internally consistent with one another, and try to figure out whose POV is being used in those scenes?

That's interesting. Could make a fine game out of that, one could.

I'll be on the lookout whenever I get back to reading Ep2.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If it's Shannon's point of view, George will probably be a hero in a subtle, but very effective way.
Actually, this just struck me as odd: George's "heroic" scene in Ep4 is actually what started most people along the "George is secretly evil" line of thinking. He's... rather malicious toward Gaap, and the "I'm going to kill everyone" line doesn't help.

How is that heroic?

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well... since 07151129 was in the end song of episode 6 it might have a deeper meaning.
What, "Birth of a New Witch"? That's song's been around from long before Ep6 was written.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:43   Link #11428
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What, "Birth of a New Witch"? That's song's been around from long before Ep6 was written.
Is "Birth of a new witch" what "Usan no Kaori" translates to?
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:45   Link #11429
Kaisos Erranon
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Is "Birth of a new witch" what "Usan no Kaori" translates to?
Wait, I thought that was the Ep6 ending theme. Give me a sec.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:46   Link #11430
Kylon99
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No, usan no kaori (胡散の香り) literally means 'scent of suspicion.' Technically 'suspiciousness' or 'suspicious person.'

Interestingly enough, people call JIMANG, 胡散臭い (Stinks of suspicion) ... although I think he was chosen to sing the ED song because he's in Sound Horizon and their past cooperation... but still.. that's one suspicious coincidence. 8)

The 07151129 sung in German that you heard was the new Beatrice version of Usan no Kaori; the one she sings. (As opposed to the old Battler version someone sang on nicovideo a long time ago... heh.) ... as far as I know the Beatrice version was played in EP6 too, right? I can't quite remember...

EDIT: Birth of a New Witch is the ED6 song.. I thought it has been around for awhile.. but this is the new R&B voiced version...
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:49   Link #11431
Judoh
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Oh Usan no Kaori plays at the end of episode 6's "????" my bad.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:51   Link #11432
Kaisos Erranon
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Oh Usan no Kaori plays at the end of episode 6's "????" my bad.
Ah, yeah, I just found it.

Yeah, it's from Circletempo's Ougon Syndrome CD, same as Birth of a New Witch. Which was released around the same time as Ep5.

I really don't think we should look for clues there.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:55   Link #11433
Judoh
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Um... I know that thanksgiving is on the fourth Thursday of November so maybe there was a day in the 1980's where thanksgiving was on November 29th?
I thought November 29th might be thanksgiving if it's not a birthday, but a search says it only goes up to the 28th. It could still be Black Friday though.
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Old 2010-06-22, 16:58   Link #11434
rogerpepitone
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The fourth Thursday of a month can never be after the 28th. (IIRC, for a while the US Thanksgiving was defined as the last Thursday in November, but FDR changed it.)

And other countries have a Thanksgiving with on a different date. Canadian Thanksgiving is in October, IIRC.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:00   Link #11435
Kaisos Erranon
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Canadian Thanksgiving is in October, IIRC.
It is. It's the same as a similar British holiday, I believe.

And the Japanese don't even celebrate Thanksgiving. Unless the originator of 07151129 is American, I don't think that would even apply.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:05   Link #11436
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Huh, okay. So you're saying we should look for fake scenes that are internally consistent with one another, and try to figure out whose POV is being used in those scenes?
Yes, this is precisely what follows from this Editor Theory as the method to crack the puzzle.

Mind you, it could all very well be a bunch of nonsense, but it doesn't hurt to try since nothing else is getting us much closer anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, this just struck me as odd: George's "heroic" scene in Ep4 is actually what started most people along the "George is secretly evil" line of thinking. He's... rather malicious toward Gaap, and the "I'm going to kill everyone" line doesn't help.

How is that heroic?
How is that subtle. I'm pretty sure that scene isn't Shannon's. George is meant to look scary dangerous in it. Heroes don't talk like that, kings and hypnotists do, it's all about control that has already settled. Looking for Shannon's model scene to work from to discover her point of view, I'd pick the one where George saves her with that talk about Earl Grey.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:19   Link #11437
Judoh
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How is that subtle. I'm pretty sure that scene isn't Shannon's. George is meant to look scary dangerous in it. Heroes don't talk like that, kings and hypnotists do, it's all about control that has already settled. Looking for Shannon's model scene to work from to discover her point of view, I'd pick the one where George saves her with that talk about Earl Grey.
So for that scene we want to find someone who has an image of George as a heartless monster? Jessica or Kanon maybe? I really don't think there are that many people who might hate him.

EDIT: or maybe they just think he'd be romantic in a passionate and possessive way?

EDIT2: Wait those scenes like the magic Battle and that scene with George and Gaap are in third person a lot of the time though. Why would the game master use somebody else's perspective and write it in third person? The only thing I can think of is that they're trying to hide whose perspective it is.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:42   Link #11438
Oliver
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So for that scene we want to find someone who has an image of George as a heartless monster? Jessica or Kanon maybe? I really don't think there are that many people who might hate him.
Not so much hate him as be scared of him, I expect. Awed and cowed. Notice that this particular scene has thoughts and feelings by Gaap, whom I think is Rosa...

My current guess is Rosa, though it's not settled, because this would imply Rosa sees reality much like Maria, which probably can't be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT2: Wait those scenes like the magic Battle and that scene with George and Gaap are in third person a lot of the time though. Why would the game master use somebody else's perspective and write it in third person? The only thing I can think of is that they're trying to hide whose perspective it is.
I suspect this may be one of the textual cues to the switching itself.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:48   Link #11439
Sentou
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Well, in regards to George, his fantasy self IS a jerk. In episode 6, he talks about not caring about killing the characters as they are "only pieces." This is where I became a huge Jessica fan, as Jessica is the only one who simply can't kill innocent people for selfish reasons. It says that even though they were pieces, Jessica felt that they should live.

Of course Rog Limitation kicks in and Jessica enjoys some delicious Kentucky Fried Kyrie, but that's beside the point. When human pieces are shown to be human in fantasy scenes, George comes off as quite the jerk. Kanon and Shannon are also willing to kill while completely human.

I just found it so griping that out of all the pieces, Jessica was the one who was fetterred and could not, as a human, bring herself to kill a strange, while George killed his mother, Kanon Rosa, and Shannon Maria and Saku.

So, I'm much more open to the idea of George as a major accomplice due to his fantasy scenes. Of course, there is the reality of Jessica's lying habit, and close relationship(s?) with the most suspicious characters in the game.

But perhaps I've digressed. I feel like the fantasy scenes at least have consistent characterization, unless of course it's shown that a particular character is possessed or something similar.
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Old 2010-06-22, 17:55   Link #11440
Judoh
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I suspect this may be one of the textual cues to the switching itself.
That was one of the things I noticed while rereading the closet scene in episode 5. The switching between third and first person is very erratic there and there isn't really even any magic going on. Since the switching happened so often and it was so blatant I was assuming that someone was spying on Natsuhi because of that. So I think I understand where your theory is going.

I haven't really been paying much attention to music cues.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-22 at 18:06.
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