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Old 2010-06-23, 15:21   Link #11501
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I think that if the corpse is being kept around, they wouldn't want to cut it up into teeny bits.
Nobody needs to do that if the bag of fertilizer is so big that Kanon can't wrap his hands around it, which is what Battler's narration says.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:27   Link #11502
delita-umw-
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Hi guys, first time posting here and I've been mulling over an idea while replaying ep 1 and was wondering if anyone has already brought this up or there's some vital piece of evidence that blows this out of the water. Most people point to the possibility of Battler being Kyrie's son due to the mysterious circumstances of his birth plus Rudolph saying he has something to reveal. Additionally it has been proposed that Jessica is actually Battler 2. What if the reason why Rudolph almost always dies very soon is a result of trying to reveal both that Battler is Kyrie's son AND Jessica is really his daughter? In doing so, he'd jeopardize Krauss' position as the head of the family as he no longer has an heir. Thoughts?
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:34   Link #11503
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Hi guys, first time posting here and I've been mulling over an idea while replaying ep 1 and was wondering if anyone has already brought this up or there's some vital piece of evidence that blows this out of the water. Most people point to the possibility of Battler being Kyrie's son due to the mysterious circumstances of his birth plus Rudolph saying he has something to reveal. Additionally it has been proposed that Jessica is actually Battler 2. What if the reason why Rudolph almost always dies very soon is a result of trying to reveal both that Battler is Kyrie's son AND Jessica is really his daughter? In doing so, he'd jeopardize Krauss' position as the head of the family as he no longer has an heir. Thoughts?
Natsuhi is pure and faithful! So if Jessica is Rudolf's daughter, she's not Jessica's mother.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:37   Link #11504
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Ah, I should have clarified. I meant that Jessica is the daughter of Rudolph and Asumu. Therefore leading to Jessica being the adopted child. The problem I see with this is that the baby is pretty clearly identified as a boy, but perhaps its a cruel joke by Rudolph and as Natsuhi seems to have no interest in the baby anyway.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:40   Link #11505
Sentou
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Renall, while that may be true, if Jessica was revealed to be the child of Rudolf, things would not go over well.

Jessica IS the heiress, and the subject would be touchy to say the least.


And after all....

Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu!
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON

The way things are set, there is a HIGH possibility that if the second Battler exists, it is a girl. Out of all the pieces on the island, this means that The second Battler is either Shannon or Jessica

It's my personal belief that it is Jessica, however.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:42   Link #11506
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Most people point to the possibility of Battler being Kyrie's son due to the mysterious circumstances of his birth plus Rudolph saying he has something to reveal.
Upon analysis of the red from Ep4 related to Battler's familial relationships, if Ange is indeed Kyrie's daughter, very few ways remain for Battler to be born satisfying all that red. Taking into account all the related red from further episodes and other considerations, pretty much no woman other than Kyrie can be Battler's mother, though there's a very implausible possibility where he is the son of Kyrie+Krauss, (and thus is still 'born of Ushiromiya X' and 'grandson of Kinzo') which would make Battler the heir-past-Krauss by default if he is a few months older than Jessica, which he very probably is.

That would be very silly though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Additionally it has been proposed that Jessica is actually Battler 2. What if the reason why Rudolph almost always dies very soon is a result of trying to reveal both that Battler is Kyrie's son AND Jessica is really his daughter? In doing so, he'd jeopardize Krauss' position as the head of the family as he no longer has an heir. Thoughts?
Actually, having a heir is never said to be a requirement to inherit, so that would not jeopardise Krauss' position by itself, though it would make Jessica and Natsuhi very miserable. Who gets to be the heir if Krauss is the head and Jessica is not his daughter is a complicated question depending on which inheritance model the Ushiromiya follow, which was never described in detail -- it may be Natsuhi and it may be Eva.
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Old 2010-06-23, 15:59   Link #11507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Renall, while that may be true, if Jessica was revealed to be the child of Rudolf, things would not go over well.

Jessica IS the heiress, and the subject would be touchy to say the least.


And after all....

Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu!
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON

The way things are set, there is a HIGH possibility that if the second Battler exists, it is a girl. Out of all the pieces on the island, this means that The second Battler is either Shannon or Jessica

It's my personal belief that it is Jessica, however.
Battler is a trap. Ho god ho god ho hell no.
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:07   Link #11508
Sentou
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I believe the term would be, reverse trap.

But nah, if we've got two Battlers, one of them is most likely female.

And the reason I choose Jessica over Shannon, is because There's nothing quite like being told you're adopted after finding out that your boyfriend and your best friend are one in the same, and would really enjoy it if you died.

It's a bit of an insult to injury, and it seems like something our lovely Bernkastel would do.
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:17   Link #11509
delita-umw-
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Well, the reason why I say that it jeopardizes Krauss' position is because I've always assumed that the real goal of the headship is to maintain the position of head of the household within Krauss' family. I mean, even if Krauss becomes head, what is the point if he can't keep it within his family in the long run? I know this ignores the whole need for money therefore need for headship thing, but my point is that I think denying the Krauss household/faction a heir is sufficient reason for them to turn to murder
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:24   Link #11510
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Well, the reason why I say that it jeopardizes Krauss' position is because I've always assumed that the real goal of the headship is to maintain the position of head of the household within Krauss' family. I mean, even if Krauss becomes head, what is the point if he can't keep it within his family in the long run. I know this ignores the whole need for money therefore need for headship thing, but my point is that I think denying the Krauss household/faction a heir is sufficient reason for them to turn to murder.
Seeing as how Kinzo is apparently allowed to bestow heirship on anyone who solves the epitaph, (and it seems to even include the servants and chance outsiders) or choice-pick among his grandchildren (Ep4) there is no reason why Krauss would not be allowed to do the same in a clearly directive fashion once he is the head -- he could simply declare that Jessica is his adopted daughter and now heir, and nobody could overturn that. Ushiromiya family is surely pretentious, but they're not a kingdom with an inheritance law.

Mind you, Krauss household may have other interesting reasons for murder, as trying to protect themselves from dishonour they have clearly committed things which are beyond civil offences.
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:30   Link #11511
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Also bear in mind that headship passed from Eva to Ange in 1998. Part of that was Eva's direct desire that it be so, but it seemed like nobody really objected to the aunt-niece transfer. When you think about it, Ange was almost certainly conceived out of marriage, so she's not exactly the purest descendant to begin with herself.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-06-23, 16:34   Link #11512
delita-umw-
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Mmm, you raise a good point. The reason I really go after the whole denying Krauss an heir thing is for two reasons that are semi-related: A) There is the possibility that if Jessica finds out her real parent is Rudolph, she could abandon the Krauss household. This could lead to all sorts of wonky hypothetical problems about if she would really do it and whether or not she would return to the Rudolph household. But given Jessica's open attitude to her parents, Krauss and Natsuhi have to consider it a very real possibility. B) This provides a more specific reason to murder Rudolph very early on. I understand that they would be trying to protect their honor but its always bothered me that specifically Rudolph dies very early in the majority of the games. This thought process goes a little way in explaining that
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:35   Link #11513
Sentou
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Regardless of whether or not Krauss and Natsuhi are involved in murder(I personally doubt it because they seem like nice blokes), Rudolf would indeed be in even more of a sticky situation than we first thought if he revealed that Jessica was his daughter in addition to Kyrie being Battler's mother.

Seriously, I can just imagine everyone lynching the poor bastard.
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Old 2010-06-23, 16:55   Link #11514
delita-umw-
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If this line of thought is true, I propose that in every game Rudolph must be killed early on out of fear of revealing the truth of her birth to Jessica. The only way this rule can be violated is if Jessica dies early on and therefore there is no point to revealing her birth origins .

P.S. I've seen this term thrown around quite a bit and have no clue what it is, so would any kind soul be willing to explain what the pony theory is?
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:06   Link #11515
Sentou
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Battler promised Shannon that he'd come back for her on a white horse when he played with her, Jessica, and George six years ago.


Shannon(Or whoever you think is Beato but it's Shannon) took it a wee bit too seriously.
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:12   Link #11516
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
A) There is the possibility that if Jessica finds out her real parent is Rudolph, she could abandon the Krauss household.
Well, such a probability does exist, though, I would be more worried about a suicide, myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
B) This provides a more specific reason to murder Rudolph very early on. I understand that they would be trying to protect their honor but its always bothered me that specifically Rudolph dies very early in the majority of the games. This thought process goes a little way in explaining that
That sort of works, but I doubt this is quite it. While Rudolf clearly has created of one of the bigger skeletons in the Ushiromiya closet collection, much more of this particular skeleton is probably hidden from our sight.

If we interpret it as you suggest, there is possibly a reason for Rudolf to threaten Krauss with revealing it, (money) but no reason to actually reveal, as it doesn't bring him money, isn't likely to make him much happier, and isn't going to go very well with Kyrie either. It's really not in his interest to anger Kyrie. Paying Rudolf off is still a cheaper option for Krauss in the long term than killing him, unless a very clear culprit that it can be pinned on exists.

I agree that Rudolf's secret is very likely connected to him dying early, but it is more likely to be about something much more complicated than Krauss' internal family issues.
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:15   Link #11517
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I thought the pony theory was to do with Battler's promise to get Maria a pony when he came back? As his sin 6 years ago?

I wouldn't actually be too surprised if his parents are Kyrie/ Krauss, somehow. Episode 4 seems to imply they have a connection and can get on well (assuming we can use fantasy scenes as ways to find out about characters).

As for Kanon/ fertilizer... heh, I'd be pretty surprised if I had spent a while digging up a corpse trying to remain secret only to have a guest offer to help you out with it. Although I'd suggest he was actually digging up the corpse in order to burn it later (presumably Krauss and Natsuhi buried him secretly in the woods) rather than going out to bury it. I think he was returning to the mansion in that scene.

Or if Shannon and Kanon can indeed disguise themselves as each other, it could be the dead one out of the two in the sacks. I'd have trouble lifting someone of my own size and weight, afterall.
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:18   Link #11518
delita-umw-
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Thanks for the explanation Sentou.

Another reason why I'm interested in this theory is cause it can lead to a neat theory on ep 3, which is that, at least in that scenario, house Krauss is allied initially with house Eva contrary to what each game would have us believe with Eva being the most active attacker against Kraus
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:19   Link #11519
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
P.S. I've seen this term thrown around quite a bit and have no clue what it is, so would any kind soul be willing to explain what the pony theory is?
The name "Pony Theory" originally refers to the idea that a person not listed among the 18 named Beatrice exists, usually considered to be the daughter of Beatrice-2 (the one that died in 1967) and Kinzo, or, alternatively, Rudolf. This hypothetical character has, in the past, interacted with Battler, in some variants disguising herself as Jessica or Shannon, and was the one that Battler made his promise to come to take her away from the island riding a white horse, that is, the pony that gives the theory it's name.

This theory has been largely debunked long ago, though recently, it was brought up again around here as it still makes bloody good narrative sense even if it doesn't fit the available evidence.
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Old 2010-06-23, 17:20   Link #11520
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I thought the pony theory was to do with Battler's promise to get Maria a pony when he came back? As his sin 6 years ago?

I wouldn't actually be too surprised if his parents are Kyrie/ Krauss, somehow. Episode 4 seems to imply they have a connection and can get on well (assuming we can use fantasy scenes as ways to find out about characters).
The statement the theory is based on doesn't say who he said it to. Just that he said it when he left, and Shannon said a lot of stuff happened back then so that might not even be it. (and since it was basically a pick up line I doubt he intended to say that to Maria anyway). The theory comes from something Shannon said. That when Battler left he said <see you again. I'll come back riding on a white horse>. Which is a line Rudolf taught him.
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