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Old 2010-06-25, 14:50   Link #11581
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
All shadows are by nature fuzzy, particularly those that go backwards in time.

It's not the existence of people who want to be masterminds that I doubt, mind you. I doubt their capability to control people effectively enough to make them murder all the time, every time. There should be breaks of control somewhere, and that essentially amounts to there being no single mastermind.
Dissent in any mass murder conspiracy like this is going to be a given. I have no problem with there being more than one mastermind. I'd like there to be only one, but the later queen theory sorta gets in the way of that.
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Old 2010-06-25, 14:57   Link #11582
Oliver
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Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:03   Link #11583
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?
A few I thought of
  • To blame it on Kinzo (Eva and Hideyoshi do this every time)
  • To blame it on Beatrice or person X (servants Jessica and Natsuhi do this a lot)
  • To give the people in the group an alibi
  • Make someone suffer (doesn't have to be about fear)
  • Battler's sin

any others we can think of?
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:05   Link #11584
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?
  • Kinzo demanded it as a condition of inheritance.
  • Distracting people with a curious game. To make them solve the epitaph, not solve it, or to keep them busy until the bomb goes off.
  • Convincing them that Battler may be an impostor and using the fake epitaph murders as some way to lure him out (akin to the Natsuhi pressure theorized to exist in ep5).
  • They do it every year since someone thought it up 4 years back, they just all forgot to tell Battler about it.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:07   Link #11585
Leafsnail
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There has to be some kind of Beatrice, otherwise Beato wouldn't be allowed to say things like "The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria"...

The first twilights are all odd, but for different reasons.

The first is odd since someone or some group must've dragged a bunch of people to the garden shed (for no real reason) after going insane with some sort of weapon.

The second is odd since all 6 people were apparently alive in the chapel, and quite how "Beatrice" lured them in there and killed them is a bit up in the air.

The third is odd due to the carefully planned nature of it... interestingly, other than Kinzo and Kanon, they all could've been found and shot where they ended up.

The fourth is weird since it's gonna be hard to blast 6 people in roughly the same part of the head without any of them reacting. On the other hand, it seems more calm and controlled than the rest...
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:12   Link #11586
Judoh
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I did come up with a theory recently for how to solve the closed rooms without having people faking and killing them after breaking them. Just an alternative for if the fake murders don't work out.

Basically it's a mutual murder. The people in the first, second twilights, etc whom are discovered dead in the closed rooms wanted to commit suicide, but for whatever reason couldn't. The murderer murders the victims because they want to die. In other words the culprit murders out of mercy and gains nothing from the murder itself. Afterward the victims create the closed rooms from the inside.(sometimes)
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:12   Link #11587
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
any others we can think of?
...oh, idea!
  • To tempt someone else into killing the defenceless "victims".
  • To remove people from the social environment for secret activities that have nothing to do with the rest of the game. (Sort of like the alibi one, but not quite.)
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:14   Link #11588
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • They do it every year since someone thought it up 4 years back, they just all forgot to tell Battler about it.
That one would be absolutely lovely, but Ange would remember.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:19   Link #11589
TTR
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Spoiler for Hella long post.:
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:29   Link #11590
TTR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I did come up with a theory recently for how to solve the closed rooms without having people faking and killing them after breaking them. Just an alternative for if the fake murders don't work out.

Basically it's a mutual murder. The people in the first, second twilights, etc whom are discovered dead in the closed rooms wanted to commit suicide, but for whatever reason couldn't. The murderer murders the victims because they want to die. In other words the culprit murders out of mercy and gains nothing from the murder itself. Afterward the victims create the closed rooms from the inside.(sometimes)
This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:33   Link #11591
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.
This'd be a gun tht shoots stakes?
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:33   Link #11592
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.
Both were killed by another person!

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Also Battler saw the magic circle himself , which is an equivalent to red truth, so using a devil's proof isn't going to help you in any way.

This is also grossly out of character for them so I don't think it would work anyway.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:39   Link #11593
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Although, if we just have Kanon as the culprit, it becomes quite a lot easier... he kills them both, cuts the lock, draws the circle and claims he found them like that. There doesn't seem to be any red text at all that contradicts that.

Incidentally, Kanon's "death" is actually pretty much guarenteed to be fake. Unless you can find a way around "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!". And sure, corpses weren't misidentified, but if you're not dead, you're not a corpse...
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:41   Link #11594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Both were killed by another person!

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Also Battler saw the magic circle himself so using a devil's proof isn't going to help you in any way.
Them killing each other counts as them being killed by another person. i.e. Hideyoshi was killed by another person, which is Eva. Eva was killed by another person, which is Hideyoshi. "Another person" doesn't exclude the people being murdered. It's an unexpected double homicide! See how beautiful it is?


I am counting as the "bathroom" and "bedroom" being counted as the same room (i.e. the closed room confines both the bathroom and bedroom, therefore they are they same room). If that doesn't fly, then technically opening the door and NOT CLOSING IT shifts the definition so that the bedroom is no longer off limits from the confines of the bathroom, therefore it technically becomes the SAME room.

An unknown accomplice, either Kanon or Kumasawa or anyone who realizes the murder has occurred before Battler gets a chance to use Detective Authority could have done the following things:

Either Kanon or Kumasawa hide the guns after they discover unexpected double homicide and decide to make it the second twilight. They alter the scene before Battler gets a chance to use Detective authority.

If Kanon or Kumasama aren't accomplices, then during the unknown span of time X between Kanon and Kumasawa leaving the room and Battler arriving after being informed of the crime all of these actions can occur. Devil's proof to show how they did in the span of time, or who it is.

This is possible to not leave clues because, in EP5, the bodies of the victims get moved without Erika (the Detective) realizing they are moved. Thus, Detective Privilege only is covered when you can physically inspect the room with your own two eyes. Devil proof on how everything was moved without leaving clues.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:46   Link #11595
Judoh
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Again it's grossly out of character for them to kill each other like that. Not that duels don't happen at all mind you it just doesn't happen between the couples and that's something that's common throughout the episodes. Plus they were both aware that the other person was in the room there is no way Eva would mistake him for the culprit like your saying.

Furthermore Both were killed by another person is different from Rosa and Maria were killed by other people . The former insinuates the two people were killed by one person the latter insinuates more than one person could possibly do it.

If anything the two of them faking is more believable than them killing each other.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:52   Link #11596
TTR
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That was a joke theory. I keep emphasizing that it was unexpected because they instinctively pull the trigger before confirming the identity of the person. Kind of like shooting in the dark. It's just too bad that they end up killing each other, isn't it?

For me, being killed "by another person" encompasses both those reds. I don't have the Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if that style of thinking is a weird nuance that comes from translating into English.

Although, it still has the chance to be right. All of these interpretations of red is like the Tube theory. None of us can negate each others interpretations!

But still, I personally believe double homicide (even unexpected) doesn't break those reds. They're both killed by another person. It's just chance they it happens to be each other hahaha.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:52   Link #11597
siberius
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Spoiler for the red text:


So basically, the only way to logically explain this situation, is to assume that someone is impersonating for one of the mentioned 15 dead characters and the original is dead.
We know that Gohda was hired just before, or right after, Kinzo death and that he was chosen because of the best qualifications.If a person X would suspect that Kinzo is dead, or soon will be, and wanted to steal his fortune, he would probably send a spy on the island. The real Gohda was killed right after he was fired from the hotel and his identity was stolen by the spy who use it to infiltrate the The Rokkenjima.
I personally find “Gohda” extremely suspicious because his death was never 100% certain. In the first episode his face was destroyed, in the second and third Battler did not find his body and in the forth episode his face was all covered in blood. The way that “Gohda” and Kumasawa corpses were placed in episode 4, visible but unreachable, suggests that the culprit wanted to show them in the open to trick the witness. In the end Battler found the way to examine them, but because he didn’t clean the blood on their faces (and because Battler is incompetent), we can’t be certain that those bodies really belong to “Gohda” and Kumasawa.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:55   Link #11598
Oliver
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
The reason why is because she is a direct descendant for the headship through Krauss.
Notice that characters always talk about "rank in Ushiromiya family". There's a reason for this. Basically, the side effect of the practice of getting around the inheritance tax is that inheritance by law normally only affects things that aren't expensive enough to bother having them owned by the holding company -- the petty cash box. I.e. any real estate and money and investments and pretty much anything of real value is inherited exactly how the head says it is and in no other way, it sidesteps the concept of a reserved portion provided for by law as well. There are no defaults and rules that move inheritance beside direct orders from the head ..or his agent, by the way, which would be Krauss. So "Beatrice" can be anyone. What the siblings are appealing to when discussing the issue with Krauss is traditional order of the Ushiromiya Group, but not the law.

But Eva's getting the inheritance anyway is implied to have been through direct legal channels, i.e. she inherited shares of the holding company as property by law, rather than bought them for a nominal amount from their previous owner like it would happen normally. For this to happen at all, "Beatrice" needs to be an Ushiromiya.

It still can be absolutely any member of the Ushiromiya family register who died on the island except Battler, because they would need to sign for it, and we know Battler didn't, since he isn't Beatrice. Jessica is a strong Beatrice candidate for other reasons, but this does not rule out, for example, Rosa, and that "Beatrice" doesn't have to be female either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Again, you keep assuming that Beatrice already somehow has the headship. I'm opening up the fact that maybe she doesn't. It's the most effective way to bypass Virgilia's red.
Argument 1: This is the only practical way to reliably instigate a fake first twilight, which is how I stumbled on the idea in the first place. That alone is not much, but,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argument 2
;#ff0000もともと黄金郷の黄金はこの子のもの。#ffffff@/
`#ff0000the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child.#ffffff `@/
That fits so much better than having found the gold before that I don't think there's much of a contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Also, does "Beatrice" even exist? Policemen that investigate the island are going to find identifiable bodies. No one is going to be identified as "Beatrice." The ferry-owner doesn't know who Beatrice is and can't testify that he took her on the island. Beatrice wouldn't have a stake in the will because her existence is simply not provable.
Well, duh, like that person ever uses the name "Beatrice" on legal documents. Please don't be silly. Did you read anything of what I wrote above? Someone has the practical headship, that is, owns the majority share of the holding company that holds the entire Ushiromiya wealth and the deed to the island as well. That someone is required to exist to bypass the 70% inheritance tax that would trigger if the shares of the holding company were passed down through a legal will. This someone is whom I refer to as "Beatrice". Whatever real first name they have does not matter as long as Ushiromiya is their last name, which is how Eva can inherit them by law (and pay the 70% inheritance tax) after they, in turn, die, and Eva survives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
If she wanted to destroy the wealth of the Ushiromiya name, all she would have to do is make sure the epitaph is never solved. In that case, their family businesses will flounder. Even if no one dies on the island, their businesses would either tank or become unprofitable. She would have a stake in people not solving the epitaph because no would could either A) get money from Krauss or B) Turn the gold into cash because their businesses are floundering.
I meant the wealth of the head house, rather than the wealth of the companies owned by the individual branch families, which are not wholly owned subsidiaries of the Ushiromiya Group despite financial ties -- otherwise, there would be no need to badger Krauss for money.
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:57   Link #11599
Judoh
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It's probably better to use Battler's logic about the time of death rather than have an impersonator. Since person X does not exist. This theory is further supported by Episode 5 so I think it's solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
However, their deaths were not proclaimed in red at the instant Doctor Nanjo died. Strictly speaking, it was in the fight between me and EVA after Doctor Nanjo's corpse was found. In other words, if someone who was alive at the time that Doctor Nanjo was killed died before EVA proclaimed that death, you can sew right through that crack!! In other words, it's like this. One of those who were first made dead by EVA's proclamation of the deaths, was able to skillfully play dead earlier and wait for us to pass by...! And while their death still hadn't been proclaimed with the red, we were made to think that they had died. Then they killed Doctor Nanjo, ......and later died for some reason! Then after that, EVA proclaimed their death in red!!
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Old 2010-06-25, 15:58   Link #11600
Oliver
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
...Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after....
Devil's proof is not actually a proof, it doesn't end the argument. Battler might be using it like that, but that's not to his credit.
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