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Old 2010-06-25, 19:26   Link #11641
TTR
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Also, on the account of Kinzotrice, I will say this: In Japanese Kinzo's Corpse is explain exactly as that. Kinzo is NOT an abstract concept or personality. If it were, then 07 wouldn't have used the Gold truth involving Kinzo's corpse. The exact gold is この死体が右代宮金蔵の死体であると保証する…!! (changed to orange because Yellow is hard to read lol) Or literally "I guarantee that this corpse is definitely Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!" Shitai, IIRC, doesn't have very many metaphorical or abstract connotations. We are assured by GM Battler that the corpse does exist and it is Kinzo's corpse, so he can't still be alive under a different name. I think that's my proposal for Kinzotrice.
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Old 2010-06-25, 19:34   Link #11642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Kinzo may well have adopted her -- or Kanon. My only serious argument against this happening is that during his own return to the Ushiromiya family register and related bureaucratic procedures, it would be very odd for Battler not to see the full list and Shannon in it, as a copy of the current family register would inevitably be involved in the documents filed.

But he could have missed that.
Or whoever it is happens to be named "Ushiromiya Maria," and nobody caught on to it being duplicated.
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Old 2010-06-25, 20:27   Link #11643
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Kanon has to have been alive for at least the fourth game, since he was the ninth victim. In fact, He was the first out of Kyrie's group to die as well (although we don't necessarily know who was actually in Kyrie's group).
Remember all the discussions about personalities dying?

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
And we know that Shannon and Kanon had to both exist at some point since they're counted as seperate people in the "6 people are dead" count.
This is the only puzzle that no one has ever successfully explained with Shkanon, I believe.

I could try to explain it as "they count as two separate people even though they share the same body" but that would invalidate the possibility of the 17th Person X, which is what I'm trying to pull for.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or whoever it is happens to be named "Ushiromiya Maria," and nobody caught on to it being duplicated.
I believe family registers contain photographs, actually. There's no way Battler (or anyone) wouldn't have noticed.

If Shannon, Kanon and/or who have you are indeed Kinzo's heirs, they're almost certainly not in the family register.
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Old 2010-06-25, 20:51   Link #11644
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This has been bugging me ever since you guys brought this up, but was there any proof that Battler literally left the family register for the Ushiromiya's? I was always under the impression that he just went to live with his grandparents and just went by Asumu's family name. If my assumption is correct, there would be a window for Kanon or Shanon to be added to the family register with little suspicion no?
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Old 2010-06-25, 20:56   Link #11645
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I can see a concept "dying" (I believe Sakutarou was talked about in similar terms), but I really can't imagine a concept being described as a "victim".

I suppose you could handwave the "6 people are dead" by saying that person x died along with them and the 6 people listed don't have to be the 6 dead... but then you've just got a much more complicated version of what you started with :P.

Something about the ep 3 first twilight is a bit off. Shannon is in the room that the parents would obviously break into first. Kanon is therefore in the room they'd break into last. It isn't inconceivable that someone else could pick up the corpse, change its clothes and drag it over to the church in this time.

Of course, we still have all this red to get round...

Incidentally, has Beatrice given a good reason she still refers to "Shannon" even though it's a name used "strictly for work only" and we now know her real name?
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:02   Link #11646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
This has been bugging me ever since you guys brought this up, but was there any proof that Battler literally left the family register for the Ushiromiya's? I was always under the impression that he just went to live with his grandparents and just went by Asumu's family name. If my assumption is correct, there would be a window for Kanon or Shanon to be added to the family register with little suspicion no?
Battler states from the beginning that by the family conference he had only recently reentered the family register. You can go with this reasoning if you want, but I don't think there is any reason to doubt this. Personally think it will only lead to a dead end.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:10   Link #11647
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Ah was that so? Guess I really need to go over the novels again in greater detail cause I don't remember him saying that =P.

edit: What I meant by proof was actually had he ever said that he reentered the register, but seeing as you just answered that, train of thought ended.

Last edited by delita-umw-; 2010-06-25 at 21:21.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:12   Link #11648
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I could try to explain it as "they count as two separate people even though they share the same body" but that would invalidate the possibility of the 17th Person X, which is what I'm trying to pull for.
For the love of Dlanor A. Knox... I hate to even ask, but what would you want to do that for?
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:20   Link #11649
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Also, on the account of Kinzotrice, I will say this: In Japanese Kinzo's Corpse is explain exactly as that. Kinzo is NOT an abstract concept or personality. If it were, then 07 wouldn't have used the Gold truth involving Kinzo's corpse. The exact gold is この死体が右代宮金蔵の死体であると保証する!! (changed to orange because Yellow is hard to read lol) Or literally "I guarantee that this corpse is definitely Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!" Shitai, IIRC, doesn't have very many metaphorical or abstract connotations. We are assured by GM Battler that the corpse does exist and it is Kinzo's corpse, so he can't still be alive under a different name. I think that's my proposal for Kinzotrice.
Shouldn't you rethink that, considering it's been demonstrated that gold text can be used to tell lies?

That's not really the point of Kinzotrice anyway. The point is to demonstrate that expanding the witch's darkness recklessly leads to absurd theories that you can't deny. Here is the continuation of that thread.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:23   Link #11650
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The point is to demonstrate that expanding the witch's darkness recklessly leads to absurd theories that you can't deny.
I still remember the Erika is the personality of Maria's evil twin theory. That was really out there too.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:24   Link #11651
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Shouldn't you rethink that, considering it's been demonstrated that gold text can be used to tell lies?

That's not really the point of Kinzotrice anyway. The point is to demonstrate that expanding the witch's darkness recklessly leads to absurd theories that you can't deny. Here is the continuation of that thread.
Okay I've found a new favorite theory hahaha. That's so amazing hahaha!

Also I haven't read 6 yet, I personally refuse to try to Text Hook it (even though I can read a little Japanese). I guess that's where the Golds start telling lies?

Hm, I wonder how that works in 6 though...
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:27   Link #11652
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Like I've said before an opinion about something you see doesn't have to really be "a lie", and supposing the gold is antimystery anyway it can be "partially true".

I like to look at the gold as something where the more Data you have to support it the more true it is. And in particular it seems to be at it's best when both the blue and the red are being used against it. When only the red is being used it gets shot down. It's like the finishing move in a fighting game.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:50   Link #11653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That's not really the point of Kinzotrice anyway. The point is to demonstrate that expanding the witch's darkness recklessly leads to absurd theories that you can't deny. Here is the continuation of that thread.
Could you please formulate the Kinzotrice in as complete form as feasible? That would be a lovely post to refer people to in the future.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:54   Link #11654
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I suppose you could handwave the "6 people are dead" by saying that person x died along with them and the 6 people listed don't have to be the 6 dead... but then you've just got a much more complicated version of what you started with :P.
Indeed. The only purpose would be to hide Person X and Shkanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Something about the ep 3 first twilight is a bit off. Shannon is in the room that the parents would obviously break into first. Kanon is therefore in the room they'd break into last. It isn't inconceivable that someone else could pick up the corpse, change its clothes and drag it over to the church in this time.
Of course, the only person who could really have done this is Shannon herself... but then, how did she die?

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Incidentally, has Beatrice given a good reason she still refers to "Shannon" even though it's a name used "strictly for work only" and we now know her real name?
Because "Shannon" isn't her real name, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
For the love of Dlanor A. Knox... I hate to even ask, but what would you want to do that for?
Pony Theory. Remember, it was pointed out a while back how narratively elegant it would be if Beatrice was a real person?

I thought about it, and... it actually works pretty well. One of the big things that any "-trice" theory fails to explain is Kyrie and Battler's first impressions of Suit-Beatrice... that is, how she looks exactly like the witch in the portrait, whose Western appearance resembles no one else on the island.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:59   Link #11655
Judoh
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the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

For Kinzotrice or any person X to work he/she must exist in the parlor in episode 5 to be part of the count. Explain that.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:03   Link #11656
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

For Kinzotrice or any person X to work he/she must exist in the parlor to be part of the count. Explain that.
Pfft. Someone's hiding behind the curtain to listen in. We know it is possible because that's where Ghost Kanon and Jessica go to hide in Ep3 and the existence of such a hiding place is hinted at by Kanon reporting the content of the family conference discussion to Kinzo in Ep1.
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:06   Link #11657
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Pfft. Someone's hiding behind the curtain to listen in. We know it is possible because that's where Ghost Kanon and Jessica go to hide in Ep3 and the existence of such a hiding place is hinted at by Kanon reporting the content of the family conference discussion to Kinzo in Ep1.
I was going to say this, but with "closet" instead of "curtain".
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:08   Link #11658
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I was going to say this, but with "closet" instead of "curtain".
No closets in the parlor (though that would be poetic, since Ushiromiyas never look into closets unless threatened -- afraid of all the skeletons in them I expect) but that curtain is definitely hinted at.
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:10   Link #11659
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
afraid of all the skeletons in them I expect
That made my day.


In any case, someone could definitely have been hiding in the parlor without anyone else (even Erika) noticing.

Any more red, Judoh?
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Old 2010-06-25, 22:13   Link #11660
TTR
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Damn. I was about to use the living Kinzo reds but I just remembered that Kinzo is dead and it wouldn't apply to "Kinzotriche"

This IS good :3 It's pa-fekuto~

Wait how you guys get around the motive reds? What kind of MOTIVE would Kinzotriche have that wouldn't conflict with THOSE reds, huh?

I wanna see what gets cooked up~
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