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Old 2010-06-27, 13:40   Link #11801
TTR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • This Battler, i.e. "I" and Ange share either a mother, or a father, or both. -- otherwise she couldn't be his little sister.
  • "I" was born from a woman named Ushiromiya because that's where his red cuts off.
In the Japanese texts, according to umineco.info, it cuts off here:
俺は、右代宮、(「明日夢から生まれた」の部分が復唱不能)
(I, Ushiromiya, (Battler can't repeat "from Asumu I was born"))

He can repeat "himself" or "I," he can't repeat the idea of being born from Asumu, but he also can't repeat the fact of being born. "I was born from" is a nuance of English translation and isn't part of the original Japanese red.

Actually, thinking about it more, it's more like

"Am born from Asumu Ushiromiya I" using both western name order and REALLY freaky syntax is the only way to completely express the same idea.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:42   Link #11802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That sort of works, but that isn't the problem here, because someone named "Ushiromiya Battler" still gets to be born from Ushiromiya Asumu in red.
Yeah, I agree that it's the biggest problem. It really does seem to beg the question: "Are there two Battlers?"
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:44   Link #11803
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Plain and simple, the red text would be wrong if there is a Battler who is Asumu's son. If the texts used referred to Battler in the second person only, I'd agree with you, but we have these troubling third person texts that make a Battler being a son of Asumu more or less break the red text. Period. I believe the child in question being a female solves this problem quite neatly.
The red only says that "you are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son", without using the name "Battler" at all. When This Battler tries to say that "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born" and fails, he once again is not trying to name himself in this statement.

The red you presume that "Battler is not Asumu's son" simply doesn't exist.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:45   Link #11804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
"Am born from Asumu Ushiromiya I" using both western name order and REALLY freaky syntax is the only way to completely express the same idea.
He's still an Ushiromiya then, though.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:47   Link #11805
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You sure? The text I am speaking of is used by ANGE-BEATRICE to confirm the other text about Ushiromiya Battler not being Ushirmiya Asumu's son. It's in the wiki, http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Tr...e_Golden_Witchused to confirm statement 149), but I'll go and replay episode 4 just to be safe.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:58   Link #11806
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
You sure? The text I am speaking of is used by ANGE-BEATRICE to confirm the other text about Ushiromiya Battler not being Ushirmiya Asumu's son. It's in the wiki, http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Tr...e_Golden_Witchused to confirm statement 149), but I'll go and replay episode 4 just to be safe.
Ah, pardon me, yes, I found it.

Quote:
;「ベアトリーチェに復唱要求。@“右代宮戦人は右代宮金蔵の孫ではない”。」@
;<縁寿
`"Beatrice, repeat it.`@` 'Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild'."`
;「復唱拒否ね。@ベアトが宣言した2つの赤き真実、@/
`"So you refuse to repeat it.`@` Beato proclaimed two red truths, `@/
se1 59
;“#ff0000戦人は明日夢の息子ではない#ffffff”、@そして/
`'#ff0000Battler is not Asumu's son#ffffff',`@` and `/
se2 59
;“#ff0000金蔵の孫である戦人にしか対戦相手の資格がない#ffffff”。@/
`'#ff0000No one except Kinzo's grandchild Battler is qualified to be an opponent#ffffff'. `@/
Ange indeed does say 'not son' in here. It is also very much not equivalent to what Beatrice said.

If she unambiguously refers to This Battler, this statement provides no information whatsoever on the Other Battler. It is not required to be true for any possible Battler, otherwise Nanjo Junior and a few more hundred people would have to be on Rokkenjima on this day. It may limit the gender of the Other Battler only if it refers to the Other Battler.

P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:00   Link #11807
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I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:04   Link #11808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
It's actually not encountered in the script of Ep1-4 at all, so it's only in the TIPS.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:05   Link #11809
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... The only thing I can think of is there is a clever Japanese wordplay going on, which is the only thing I can think of.

Usually the verb Umareru (生まれる) strictly means "to be born." It is also a passive conjugation of Umu (生む) which is "to give birth to."

Umareru usually only carries the definition "being born" physically, as a woman went through labor and had a baby.

However, Umu is MUCH tricker. It usually can also mean just "to produce." Here's an example sentence:

親しさは侮りを生む。 (shitashisa wa anadori wo umu)

It means "Familiarity breeds contempt."

If we assume that Umareru is not being strictly used as it usually is (not as it usually stand alone verb but more a passive conjugation of Umu) then we could say that some how Asumu didn't "give birth" to him per say, but maybe she produced the idea of him. Maybe the name? Or Asumu made Kyrie mad about her having Rudolf to herself. Kyrie gets extremely jealous and vengeful, which causes Kyrie to sleep with Rudolf. She has Battler. In that scenario, Asumu does kind of produce or give way for Battler.


You could also say that Asumu's motherly kindness to Battler produced the Battler that we have today. Beatrice says Umareru in this context, and not the traditional "give birth to" context.

Battler CAN'T REPEAT the same sentence back because he assumes that Beatrice is using the "give birth to" context. Because of this wrong context assumption, he can't repeat the same sentence? I mean, it's plausible since we've all said before that Red is heavily dependent on context and is there to mislead us sometimes.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:05   Link #11810
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Come to think of it, does Dr. Nanjo's given name (Terumasa) ever come up either?
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:07   Link #11811
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Come to think of it, does Dr. Nanjo's given name (Terumasa) ever come up either?
Yes, in Ep4 in the description of the letter sent "from Nanjo". It is only seen twice in the entire script, both times in the scene where the letter is brought up.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:09   Link #11812
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True, Ange says:

戦人は明日夢の息子ではない

"Batora wa Asumu no musuko dewa nai"

"Battler is not Asumu's son"

she didn't use the the form "isn't born from", I wonder if this includes even a foster son? That wouldn't make sense 'though...

She didn't use the surnames either but... "Battler" by itself is pretty unique. There is no reason for Ange to lie or be deceiving about this one.

Battler isn't Asumu's son, and yet someone named Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu.

Quote:
I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
The same goes for what concern the death of his daughter. It's simply not mentioned anywhere in the story.


Quote:
sually the verb Umareru (生まれる) strictly means "to be born." It is also a passive conjugation of Umu (生む) which is "to give birth to."
I'm no japanese expert but I think the form is what clearly defines how the verb should be interpreted. "um-areru" is a passive form "um-u" is an active form. So it's not really ambiguous. the form "umareru" should be always passive.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:10   Link #11813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Ah, pardon me, yes, I found it.



Ange indeed does say 'not son' in here. It is also very much not equivalent to what Beatrice said.

If she unambiguously refers to This Battler, this statement provides no information whatsoever on the Other Battler. It is not required to be true for any possible Battler, otherwise Nanjo Junior and a few more hundred people would have to be on Rokkenjima on this day. It may limit the gender of the Other Battler only if it refers to the Other Battler.

P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter.
The Other Battler is indeed troubling, but for better or worse, one came from Asumu. And since Beatrice used it, I think it's significant. Not that it has to be damaging, though. We have the whole "trust" thing remember, and we also have the benefit of Battler usually being the detective. Most significant red texts regarding Battler have the second person in them anyways.

The reason I am pushing this towards Jessica, if anyone(remember, the second Battler could simply be dead!), is because thematically it seems to fit.

Jan-Poo - Battler is Asumu's foster son. She did raise him. So I think this has to be in terms of parenthood. Meaning that we do have to acknowledge that a second Battler exists, one that in my opinion, is most likely female. Or dead lol.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:10   Link #11814
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Battler CAN'T REPEAT the same sentence back because he assumes that Beatrice is using the "give birth to" context. Because of this wrong context assumption, he can't repeat the same sentence? I mean, it's plausible since we've all said before that Red is heavily dependent on context and is there to mislead us sometimes.
That would work to deny the Other Battler, because then no physical person is born from Ushiromiya Asumu named Ushiromiya Battler, and the name is exclusive, hurrah!

It's certainly possible. However, this is very, very shaky, I basically wouldn't be sure unless a native said that it can be read that way.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:14   Link #11815
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Hm, I can definitely see if people can ask around, or see if maybe someone can post on the 07 official BBS for me. Didn't see Jan-Poo's post nevermind hahaha
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:18   Link #11816
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
The reason I am pushing this towards Jessica, if anyone(remember, the second Battler could simply be dead!), is because thematically it seems to fit.
It's better (but wrong from the point of view of narrative structure) for the Other Battler to be dead. The Other Battler does it's damage not by being Jessica.

It does the damage by making it ambiguous whether any red that mentions Battler refer to This Battler or Other Battler -- including, in particular "Battler is not the culprit, Battler did not kill anyone", but also many other, more particular and less far-reaching reds.

As we know from Kinzotrice... anything that expands the witch's darkness gives room to horrible absurdities that are extremely hard to deny. And this is what the existence of the Other Battler does.

Sure, Jessica can be Rudolf+Asumu's daughter, no problem, but if she can rightfully bear the name "Ushiromiya Battler" by that, we're screwed.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:20   Link #11817
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Huzzah! We've proven beyond a doubt that a second Battler was born- Wait, crap. At least we managed to clear up this a bit, for better or for worse.

So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?

Oliver - It's better for us that this other Battler is dead, but how would Beatrice know about some dead child? I for one can not dismiss it as a mere trick used by the author, it has to have some significance. I found Jessica and Genji's omission in episode 6 a bit suspicious, and this may be the answer I am searching for.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:22   Link #11818
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm no japanese expert but I think the form is what clearly defines how the verb should be interpreted. "um-areru" is a passive form "um-u" is an active form. So it's not really ambiguous. the form "umareru" should be always passive.
Hm, what I'm saying exactly is that Umareru usually means "to be born" in a strict sense of coming out of the womb. But the verb Umu can also means "to produce."

My exactly theory is that Beatrice is not using a "to be born from" strict context, but a more lax "to be produced from" laid-back context. It opens up more doors and allows us to think a little more freely. Almost like "Ushiromiya Battler was produced from/came from Ushiromiya Asumu" and not "was born from" since the definition could still stick for Umareru.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:23   Link #11819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?
If not Jessica we could get a Battler = Amakusa in a completely different context. And Renall may not have as much of a problem with it since Amakusa shouldn't know about it either.

EDIT: If we go by hints from Higurashi though the idea of "twins" or "two successors" is bad for families like the Ushiromiya family. So they might go as far as infanticide to get rid of an unnecessary heir. The Sonazaki's were reluctant to, but the Ushiromiyas might not be.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:28   Link #11820
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The best guess that can be made is that this "Battler Ushiromiya" was born already dead and was replaced with Kyrie's son.

But who knows... the best guess is not always to correct one. Still I'm not really fond of the idea of another Battler running around, so I'd rather have him dead.
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