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Old 2010-06-28, 05:07   Link #11901
Oliver
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Has it ever been said when Kinzo died?
Also, when was the epitaph and portrait of Beatrice put up?
When discussing the scene of the family conference of 1985 in Ep5, Battler says that Grandfather is dead at this point in time, which I interpret as Kinzo having died no later than Friday, 4th October 1985 (as he didn't die immediately before the conference).

The portrait is said to have been put up in April 1984, but no mention is made of whether the epitaph was simultaneous with it or not -- one presumes it was.

See the timeline in my sig for more details.
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:13   Link #11902
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Maybe Krauss delays for longer than 10 minutes under the pretense of waiting for Kinzo in order to help with preparations with some plot going on in the background? Cause this 4 hour long dinner has the convenient side effect of freeing up many of the servants to do suspicious stuff without the possibility of getting caught. Afterall, all the Ushiromiya's are essentially trapped in the dining room for the entirety of the meal. As to what those actions could be, I have no clue.
Incidentally, during the dinner, at least for part of it, the dining hall contains the majority of the island population -- all the living Ushiromiyas are definitely there, Gohda oversees serving personally, Shannon and Kumasawa are doing the actual serving and apparently, Genji is also involved.

As far as I can see, only Kanon is never seen during dinner by pretty much anyone, so he has those four hours to do something fun.

In particular in Ep2, though, Shannon is supposedly serving the dinner in the VIP room to "Beatrice" during this time, and Kanon is still not seen during dinner as far as I remember.
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:18   Link #11903
Dlanor A. Knox
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@ Oliver: This can be cleaned up in under an hour, which still leaves an hour unexplained.


Can't it be that the diner is made when the cousins are called or when everyone is present? that would also take some time to make....

Because I'm sure they would like to eat their meal when it's warm, and if they have to wait like 2 hours the food would be cold and I dont think Gohda would put his precious/hard work food in a microwave so it's all warm again
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:37   Link #11904
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
Can't it be that the diner is made when the cousins are called or when everyone is present? that would also take some time to make....

Because I'm sure they would like to eat their meal when it's warm, and if they have to wait like 2 hours the food would be cold and I dont think Gohda would put his precious/hard work food in a microwave so it's all warm again
I don't think Gohda would condone this either -- I don't think he believes in using a microwave at all for that matter. But the practical way to do this would be like this:
  • Gohda completes those operations that take a long time -- makes the sauce, prepares the steak for whatever he's doing with it, leaving only the operations that can be completed in under 30 minutes or so.
  • It definitely can't take longer than 10 minutes to go from the guesthouse to the mansion, so once Gohda is done with the pre-preparations, he says it's time to call everyone, giving them a generous margin of being late, finding the right place to sit according to rank, etc. Simultaneously, Gohda starts on the last phases of cooking.
  • By the time everyone is there and have eaten their hours d'oeuvres, it's time to serve soup and it's just done.
I.e. it makes no sense to call people to the table in such a way that they would have to wait an hour at the table, which is what makes the extra wait more dubious.

In Ep1, at 18:00, cousins are hanging out in the guesthouse, and Kanon comes to fetch them. This would be precisely the right time to fetch them if the expected time for the dinner to start would be 18:30. This would also be the perfect moment for Krauss to start banging on the door.

Even assuming that the cousins are late because of being held up by Maria in the garden, they can't be held up for more than half an hour, so the dinner has to start no later than 19:00 -- but then, nobody comments that the cousins are late, there's no reason why Kanon is so early to fetch them, and the text actually feels like they aren't late in the end anyway. This sort of settles the dinner length to one and a half hours, extra half hour for talking about the Beatrice Letter and the cousins running away right before 22:00, which feels about right.

But it still leaves me puzzled at why the time of dinner in such a rigidly regulated, almost Victorian household is not well fixed.
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:53   Link #11905
Dlanor A. Knox
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I've found something about Victorian diner time's of the upperclass and the noble's 0.0
I dunno if it helps or anything but you'll never know:

1730 & '40: diner time at 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
1770: Diner time at 4 or 5.
1790: Dinner at perhaps five or six p.m. Then it was “afternoon” until evening came with supper, sometime between nine p.m. and two a.m.
1800: diner at 6 or 7
1840: diner at 8 or 9


If you look at this you would say they have about the same diner time as the Victorian people in 1790 ^^;;
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:55   Link #11906
delita-umw-
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According to your explanation Oliver I'm a little confused. Say they start eating at 19:00 and eat for an hour and a half plus spend 30 mins on talking about that letter, we get 19+2=21 for 21:00. Where does that extra hour between the talking and running away to the guesthouse go? Gah, the more I try to think of logical explanations for why dinner would take 4 hours long, the less sense I make of it cause 4 hours just seems too long.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:06   Link #11907
Smeckledorf
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I have a line of logic I would like to run through here.
Battler makes some sort of cheesy promise to return to Shanon. However, he does not and Shanon falls in love with George. Because of her love for George, she can no longer love Battler thus Beatrice is born. During sometime in her employment, Shanon found out where the gold hidden. Years later, Battler returns to a family conference and knowing this Shanon planned for a special event. She planned to carry out the epitaph without actually sacrificing people. Shanon only planned to drug people to be in an unconscious, dead-like state. She also had planted a bomb that is set to explode at at midnight on the second day of the family conference. The person Shanon wants to discover the gold is in fact Battler. The reasoning for this is the rewards in the epitaph for discovering the gold. 1 - All of the gold, duh. 2 - Resurrection of all the dead, no one was supposed to die so they should come back. 3 and 4 - And this is the key, resurrection of the lost love and the witch will be put to sleep forever. Shanon would once again love Battler and there will be no need for Beatrice anymore. The 4th reward could also be linked to the disarming of the bomb.
However, things go awry and someone starts murdering the twilight sacrifices. I still can't think of a motive for someone to do that but that's what I got so far.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:09   Link #11908
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
IIf you look at this you would say they have about the same diner time as the Victorian people in 1790 ^^;;
They also had supper, which came much later and which Ushiromiya seem to pass on completely. I hate the way the words "lunch", "dinner" and "supper" get confused among the English-speaking cultures... But I still think the day in the Ushiromiya household would be strictly on the clock, whichever schedule they pick in the end.

Mind you, I don't think the times you found are directly applicable, because of the wacky Japanese Standard Time, shifted and distorted compared to how the rest of the world prefers to measure their day. People waking up around 05:00 is perfectly normal in Japan, because the time zone is set up so that 18:00 is when it's definitely already dark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
According to your explanation Oliver I'm a little confused. Say they start eating at 19:00 and eat for an hour and a half plus spend 30 mins on talking about that letter, we get 19+2=21 for 21:00. Where does that extra hour between the talking and running away to the guesthouse go? Gah, the more I try to think of logical explanations for why dinner would take 4 hours long, the less sense I make of it cause 4 hours just seems too long.
That's the whole problem. Suppose we assume 1:30 for the dinner and 30 minutes for the letter, which would feel about right.

That means that there is still an hour long hole either before or after dinner -- either the cousins run away a whole hour later, watching Maria get interrogated the whole time when they instantly ran away from Rosa chewing her out or they actually start eating at 20:00, which wouldn't feel too odd if Kanon didn't come to fetch them at 18:00+X where X as seen in the text is definitely under 30 minutes!

Alternatively, the dinner from the moment everyone is seated to the moment the cousins run away takes 3:30, which feels pretty much ridiculous.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:14   Link #11909
delita-umw-
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I've been toying with a similar line of thought. The one part where we really diverge though is at the bombing cause I just don't see a reason for it. She wants to have Battler love her again so she plans on really killing everyone if he doesn't find the gold?

As for motive, I can see either George out of jealousy or the fake deaths enabling other parties to carry out their own murder plans/impulses. Which is somewhat unrealistic unfortunately.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:14   Link #11910
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I have a line of logic I would like to run through here.
This is currently one of the dominant ideas, but multiple variants are possible, because multiple possible Beatrice identities fit it. In particular, most Shkanontrice, Shannontrice and Jessitrice-based theories all work with this or a very similar pattern.

Which to pick is still an open question and recently, the base of this pattern is getting doubted, see the last 3000-4000 postings or so for multiple incidents.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:21   Link #11911
Smeckledorf
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Well, first off the bombing is of a person not in their right mind. The kind of person who has to create multiple personalities to cope with reality.
Second, I do not look up Umineko stuff on the web. I post here and look at the wikia/wikipedia from time to time. So, if someone else has made the exact same connections as I have then good for them.
If I had to go with one to pick, even though Shkanontrice is mundane I would say that. Shanon already has two personalities at least, who says she can't fit one more up in that head of hers. Also, it would explain why the person who wrote the letter using Maria's name knew that there may or may not be a body.
Kanon kind of fits the build, too. Battler cannot be together with Shanon, Battler would love someone who looks like Beatrice, and Battler would never date a person like Kanon. So, in a fit of jealousy because Shanon and Beatrice decided to give Battler a chance, Kanon tries to ruin the ceremony.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:22   Link #11912
Dlanor A. Knox
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Maybe I should move to Japan (Always wakes up arround 4/5 am)

But the cousins may not walk straight to the mansion, knowing Jessica&Battler, they will quarrel arround and George will just stand from a distance with a smile on his face and with Kanon next to him sighing..

Or something like that ^^;;
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:23   Link #11913
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
But the cousins may not walk straight to the mansion, knowing Jessica&Battler, they will quarrel arround and George will just stand from a distance with a smile on his face and with Kanon next to him sighing..

Or something like that ^^;;
...under the rain?
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:27   Link #11914
Dlanor A. Knox
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They've got umberella's (did I spell it right 0.0?) with them right?
Because they also had umberella's with them when they went to Maria in the rain...
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Last edited by Dlanor A. Knox; 2010-06-28 at 06:28. Reason: grammar >.>
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:27   Link #11915
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Now, I could be completely making this up but I've heard that sometimes dinners in Europe last longer than say an American dinner. So maybe an hour and a half can be stretched out further if the Ushiromiya's eat in such a manner. But is it really possible to extend a dinner to two and a half hours?

edit: even with umbrellas I'm not too sure anyone would really wanna stay outside in that kind of weather for too long.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:27   Link #11916
Smeckledorf
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Maybe not under the rain but perhaps they try to avoid the rain or fetch umbrellas. Also, cooking for 18 people takes quite a while.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:32   Link #11917
Dlanor A. Knox
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I dont know how long an American Dinner takes.
But here in The Netherlands Dinner takes from 30 min to an hour and when we are with the whole family, whe mostly stay chatting after dinner and play games and sort. ^^
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:35   Link #11918
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Now, I could be completely making this up but I've heard that sometimes dinners in Europe last longer than say an American dinner. So maybe an hour and a half can be stretched out further if the Ushiromiya's eat in such a manner. But is it really possible to extend a dinner to two and a half hours?
I honestly doubt it. I'm nowhere as refined as these people, probably, but I find it doubtful you can make Maria sit still for that long without a TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Maybe not under the rain but perhaps they try to avoid the run or fetch umbrellas.
According to the text, umbrellas are available close by in both the guesthouse and the mansion, (and living on an island like that, I would expect both would be overstocked in umbrellas after someone gets sufficiently annoyed at noticing that all the umbrellas are in one of the two places). So they definitely can't delay them.

Also... it takes me 7 minutes to walk 500m - I know that exactly, because that pathway was once a runner's track and was marked up with distances. Assuming they walk two times slower than me, it would be 15 minutes. It's 2km to Kuwadorian on the other side of the island. Is the mansion really so far from the guesthouse that a slow walk is longer than 20 minutes?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Also, cooking for 18 people takes quite a while.
Granted, it does, but that's all the more reason to start well in advance.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:40   Link #11919
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
I think that IF we look at the lenght of dinner times in europe, we should look at Italy.
Probaly....Maybe....
They are eating French style though.
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Old 2010-06-28, 06:47   Link #11920
Dlanor A. Knox
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Well the french people eat at 7pm till 11pm

But now I think about it, since the Ushiromiya's are all luxery the would have:
1:apretizer
2:another dish (dont know the name in english)
3: head court
4: Dessert

And the Supper ofcourse....
...
THAT'S ALOT!! *jealous*
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