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Old 2010-06-28, 09:37   Link #11941
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.
It would be trivial to take out Natsuhi in ep1 or Gohda in ep2. One could follow George and Shannon out to the arbor and get them there (assuming one or both aren't the killers themselves, anyway). When Kanon runs off to do something (if he's not another person), kill him on the evening of the 4th, before anybody goes to bed. People seem accustomed to him being off on his own. If murder is your goal and you're not intentionally following the epitaph, why are you waiting or arbitrarily restricting your victim count?

Of course this assumes the killer intends to kill everybody. But the only way to explain away the different patterns is different motives, which implies different killers.
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Old 2010-06-28, 09:44   Link #11942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.
I'm pretty sure The Dining Hall is in the mansion. In episode 3 the Adults had their discussion there for the whole night. So I don't think that's really true.
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Old 2010-06-28, 10:02   Link #11943
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If murder is your goal and you're not intentionally following the epitaph, why are you waiting or arbitrarily restricting your victim count?

Of course this assumes the killer intends to kill everybody. But the only way to explain away the different patterns is different motives, which implies different killers.
And why not?...

Assuming that the murders are connected with the epitaph at all creates a motive to kill everyone, which, while initially it sounds plausible, is inherently dubious. But the plot continues with removing the central 19th-person culprit who would have such a motive, the opportunity for anyone to perform all the murders, the precision in following the epitaph... That actually leaves any global motive undefined, well, what if there isn't any?

If your goal is an opportunistic single murder only, killing the other FFT victims makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you can be discovered by your motive - you basically hide your single real victim among four or five other corpses that you know can all be pinned on the FFT organiser. This is where a rational murderer with such a motive should actually stop and pretend they're innocent!

Subsequent murders can then be the result of removing witnesses who turn up, internal conflicts and accusations in the FFT group, paranoia...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm pretty sure The Dining Hall is in the mansion. In episode 3 the Adults had their discussion there for the whole night. So I don't think that's really true.
In Ep3, nobody is confirmed to be dead until the morning either, and the most likely theory involves the murders happening immediately after the discovery of the bodies. Adults are alert and move as a group after having seen the seals, so I don't see many opportunities to add any extra victims to the list.
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Old 2010-06-28, 10:02   Link #11944
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I doubt the killer in the fourth game is following any epitaph though. Really, the only thing that even vaguely suggests it is the 6 people shot in the dining room, and even then there are actually 7 corpses found there. Also, the two who are close... who are they? George and Jessica? Kumasawa and Gohda? None of them seem to work very well. Not to mention the stakes which just seem to have been carelessly stuck into heads...
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Old 2010-06-28, 10:35   Link #11945
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint.
Wait. quadrillion-qilian => u dr l o

Let us assume that "those who remain" must "tear apart those who are close", so that a permutation is needed and only permutations in which D and R are apart with at least one of the remaining letters between them are valid. Well, I just made a list of all of them and here's the only one that makes any sense. In fact, it's the only sequence beside "Lord U" that seems to make any sense.

RUDOL => Rudolf.

What does his name sound when written out as romaji, again?
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Old 2010-06-28, 10:55   Link #11946
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"Oh oops, I misinterpreted the epitaph. I thought it said to kill Rudolf first."

"No wonder he thought he was going to die. Well, it's a good thing you didn't kill him then."

"..."

"...You killed Rudolf, didn't you."

"I was just trying to be proactive!"
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Old 2010-06-28, 11:02   Link #11947
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"No wonder he thought he was going to die. Well, it's a good thing you didn't kill him then."
*spends a few minutes laughing before replying*

Well, that would make sense, wouldn't it? Rudolf got to the 'tear apart' step, then decided he's definitely not going further because of noticing his name in it and getting Seriously Worried. Now Beatrice Letter demands the epitaph be solved...

Of course he would expect to die now...
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:13   Link #11948
delita-umw-
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Err, if the question about Rudolf's pronunciation was a serious question, it would be sound like Rudorufu.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:21   Link #11949
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Err, if the question about Rudolf's pronunciation was a serious question, it would be sound like Rudorufu.
It sort of was. You never know with these people.

Seriously, I really couldn't find any other readable permutation. Though one other possibility remains... that "to lift up" means something other than just remove, and the lifted letters are to be used in between D and R.

Though that probably isn't it. A word that starts with UD is rare enough, but one that also ends with RLO, I don't think there's any in English or Japanese.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:25   Link #11950
Smeckledorf
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Well on the second twilight, you only have two kill one person to split/tear him/her from a close person.
For finding the gold, yea it is likely some weird mechanism where you have to take two things apart.
I don't know how hard you are grading the killer on his/her job but the killings seem to be of opportunity and not just for the epitaph. The fact that it all fits is sheer luck.
Like, let's say Kanon and Jessica for episode 2. The letter to provoke one of the children, it could have been Battler or George also due to the letter's ambiguity, was found by Jessica. So, she was left behind with Kanon. If George was there, then he would have been split from Shanon? Who may or may not have been there with him. What about Battler? He's got no one, except his parents really. What if you say parents are close? Then we could say it is easier to nail the second twilight.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:31   Link #11951
delita-umw-
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Ok, so those possibilities are highly unlikely. So IF Rudol is the only reasonable permutation left, what could it mean? The only thing I could think of is that Rudolph was somehow made the trustee for that inheritance situation you described before Oliver prior to the game starting and therefore what the epitaph does is determine a heir and reveals who the heir should go to for the inheritance. Also would explain why he tends to die first IF he chooses to reveal that he is the trustee during the FT but refuses to bestow the inheritance.

Course this is all a huge stretch and I'm not sure where Beato would fit in. Possibly someone else who has already solved the riddle but refuses to claim the gold? Also not too sure if you determine a location on the island purely on clues from everything prior to Rudol.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:33   Link #11952
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Wait. quadrillion-qilian => u dr l o

Let us assume that "those who remain" must "tear apart those who are close", so that a permutation is needed and only permutations in which D and R are apart with at least one of the remaining letters between them are valid. Well, I just made a list of all of them and here's the only one that makes any sense. In fact, it's the only sequence beside "Lord U" that seems to make any sense.

RUDOL => Rudolf.

What does his name sound when written out as romaji, again?
lol that's interesting but let's see it from the kogane theory standpoint

quadrillion-liquid=__a_r_l__on

oarln
oalrn
oraln
olarn
orlan
olran

there doesn't seem to be anything relevant, with maybe the exception of "orlan" which is close to "orland" but not close enough.

let's see if i can find all the possible combinations of anything that could lead to only "two close". there's something that helps with this.
Either the two who are close are the two "l", or at least three among the "illi" characters must be eliminated. Else there wouldn't be a compulsory couple of two close letters. It could be "_li_" but also "_l_i" or "i_l_". At any rate if the riddle is well made, such an occurrence shouldn't be possible.
There is however the special case where both "ll" are eliminated and the "i" are not, however in this case we'd have already 4 automatic exclusions.


case one: "ll" are the two who are close (both "i" must be eliminated)


q_a_r_ll___ --- udiion
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll_o_ --- qadiin
q_a___ll_o_ --- udriin
q__d__ll_o_ --- uariin
q___r_ll_o_ --- uadiin
__a_r_ll_o_ --- qudiin
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll__n --- qadiio
q_a___ll__n --- udriio
q__d__ll__n --- uariio
q___r_ll__n --- uadiio
__a_r_ll__n --- qudiio


case two: both "i" are are kept ("r", "o" and the two "l" are eliminated)


qu___i__i_n --- adrllo
qu_d_i__i__ --- arllon
_ua__i__i_n --- qdrllo
__ad_i__i_n --- qurllo
q_ad_i__i__ --- urllon


case three: both "i" are are kept and "ri" are the two who are close ("d", "o" and the two "l" are eliminated)


q___ri__i_n --- uadllo
_u__ri__i_n --- qadllo
__a_ri__i_n --- qudllo
q_a_ri__i__ --- udllon


case four: both "i" are are kept and "io" are the two who are close ("r", "n" and the two "l" are eliminated)


q__d_i__io_ --- uarlln


that's it....

case five: both "i" and one "l" are eliminated


q___r_l__on --- uadili
_u__r_l__on --- qadili
__a_r_l__on --- qudili <- kogane theory
qu__r_l__o_ --- adilin
qu_d__l__o_ --- arilin
_ua_r_l__o_ --- qdilin
q_ad__l__o_ --- urilin
q__dr_l__o_ --- uailin
_u_dr_l__o_ --- qailin <- qilian theory
qu__r_l___n --- adilio
qu_d__l___n --- arilio
_ua_r_l___n --- qdilio
q_ad__l___n --- urilio
q__dr_l___n --- uailio
_u_dr_l___n --- qailio


case six: both "l" and one "i" are eliminated "r" and "o" must be eliminated as well because else you wouldn't have a compulsory couple or you might have two of them.


qu_d_i____n --- arllin
q_ad_i____n --- urllin


case seven: both "i" and "l" are eliminated


q_a_r____on --- udilli


that's it...

I think this should cover them all if "quadrillion" is the starting sentence.

tell me if you think I missed something.


EDIT:

The 41 possible combinations ordered by "couple"


qu___i__i_n --- adrllo
qu_d_i__i__ --- arllon
qu__r_l__o_ --- adilin
qu_d__l__o_ --- arilin
qu__r_l___n --- adilio
qu_d__l___n --- arilio
qu_d_i____n --- arllin
_ua__i__i_n --- qdrllo
_ua_r_l__o_ --- qdilin
_ua_r_l___n --- qdilio
__ad_i__i_n --- qurllo
q_ad_i__i__ --- urllon
q_ad__l__o_ --- urilin
q_ad__l___n --- urilio
q_ad_i____n --- urllin
q__dr_l__o_ --- uailin
_u_dr_l__o_ --- qailin
q__dr_l___n --- uailio
_u_dr_l___n --- qailio
q___ri__i_n --- uadllo
_u__ri__i_n --- qadllo
__a_ri__i_n --- qudllo
q_a_ri__i__ --- udllon
q_a_r_ll___ --- udiion
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll_o_ --- qadiin
q_a___ll_o_ --- udriin
q__d__ll_o_ --- uariin
q___r_ll_o_ --- uadiin
__a_r_ll_o_ --- qudiin
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll__n --- qadiio
q_a___ll__n --- udriio
q__d__ll__n --- uariio
q___r_ll__n --- uadiio
__a_r_ll__n --- qudiio
q__d_i__io_ --- uarlln
q___r_l__on --- uadili
_u__r_l__on --- qadili
__a_r_l__on --- qudili
q_a_r____on --- udilli
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-06-28 at 13:48.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:35   Link #11953
Smeckledorf
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Person who finds the gold is head of the family. Beatrice owns all of the gold. He would have to be Beatrice, and if anyone else knew head of the family, unless someone else found it.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:37   Link #11954
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Ok, so those possibilities are highly unlikely. So IF Rudol is the only reasonable permutation left, what could it mean? The only thing I could think of is that Rudolph was somehow made the trustee for that inheritance situation you described before Oliver prior to the game starting and therefore what the epitaph does is determine a heir and reveals who the heir should go to for the inheritance.
Unfortunately that as such doesn't work because then Rudolf would have no need whatsoever to pressure Krauss... He could either just slam the documents on the table and say "And now you listen to me." or dip his hand in like Krauss did.

That does not, however preclude Rudolf from being in one way or another special in relation to the epitaph, considering Battler, his sin, the Other Battler and the entire mess.

...and darn, I forgot what I was going to say but I had a different idea.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:40   Link #11955
delita-umw-
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Like I said, it was a huge stretch. Though maybe that "and now you listen to me" sparks his murder?
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:41   Link #11956
Smeckledorf
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After episode 6, the curious part of me wonders if Battler could at all be in on people faking their deaths. Could explain why he is never really 'chosen' as a sacrifice. Also, he is in position to lay quite a few of the letters that were found. Of course, this is crazy talk since Battler has control of his own piece and would know this. Not going through with it would be an easy was to stop the murders, in my opinion.
The other reason I say this is because of what the difficulty level for episode 6 read.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:49   Link #11957
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
tell me if you think I missed something.
Well, if I approach them with the same rule I got RUDOL with from Qilian, (i.e "any permutation that does not include the two letters that were consecutive as consecutive") the following ones sound like something:

loanr, loran, lorna, rolan... That's about it. There's 408 of them, so I won't post the whole list.
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Old 2010-06-28, 13:53   Link #11958
Oliver
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*sputter* I just made the next step in that chain of thought that Rudolf would be Beatrice.

Beatrice: "BATTLER, I AM YOUR FATHER. SEARCH YOUR HEART, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE! *ahahaha.wav*"
Battler: "Say it in red!"
Beatrice: "Sure. Battler, I am your father."
Battler: "NOOOOOOOoooooooooo!"
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Old 2010-06-28, 14:00   Link #11959
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I dunno, was the 07151129 confirmed to have something to do with the epitaph?
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Old 2010-06-28, 14:02   Link #11960
Jan-Poo
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confirmed? No.

But Ryukishi said that there's something about that 07151129
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