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Old 2010-06-29, 13:26   Link #12061
Smeckledorf
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But that is a candlestick, would that really be sharp enough to pierce?
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:27   Link #12062
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It'd actually be funny if Kanon thinks Battler is the murderer.
Well... If you were caught with Kinzo's corpse and let off without a word, and then the guy who let you off is seen with a spear-shaped object, while all the people who died and weren't supposed to have suspicious holes in their skulls...

I guess you would have some very good grounds.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:28   Link #12063
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There is. And usually it's in Battler's hands, often a candlestick. Battler seems to be especially prone to improvising polearms.
Well, Ryukishi07 did play the Final Fantasy series. And he did love Dragoons (the job that wields spears and polearms). Heck, he even named himself after the job.

Authors often make their main characters based on themselves. I can attest to this. So perhaps Ryukishi07 made the culprit a Dragoon.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:29   Link #12064
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
But that is a candlestick, would that really be sharp enough to pierce?
Quote:
`I found a three-pronged candlestick and readied it.`@
`Although the pins on it, which were used to fit candles, were short, it was almost like a three-pronged spear.
A candleholder with pins involves an object with a sharp, thin pin that you stick a candle onto. That's sharp enough to inflict very painful wounds, though they usually aren't long enough to actually kill anyone.

Poking an eye out with it is no problem though.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:35   Link #12065
Smeckledorf
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You know, it is still possible that Kinzo is still alive. In episode 5, Ronove made the blue truth that said something along the lines that corpse doesn't have to refer to a dead body, and after that Battler still uses 'Kinzo's corpse' in red and gold truth. We do not actually know what golden truth is. Shkanon would allow another person to be on the island. Kinzo starts all games dead. In episode 6, we're pretty much told that personalities can die and in episode 4 he was going around under the persona of Goldsmith. Lastly, I believe in the beginning of episode 5 Battler asked, is he really dead? and the witch with him responded Grandfather is already dead at this point. Grandfather could mean Battler's maternal side's grandfather.
Just my two cents because I am bored.
I just can't decide whether Ryukishi is trying to use reverse psychology or if he really wants us to believe Kinzo does not effect any game.

Also, on the subject of spears. Didn't some of the backgrounds of the mansion have some suits of armor in them? Couldn't one of the spears have come from those?
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:39   Link #12066
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
You know, it is still possible that Kinzo is still alive.

*snip*

Just my two cents because I am bored.
Please make a maximally complete Kinzotrice theory so we can scare people with it in the future.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:41   Link #12067
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I believe in the beginning of episode 5 Battler asked, is he really dead? and the witch with him responded Grandfather is already dead at this point. Grandfather could mean Battler's maternal side's grandfather.
Just my two cents because I am bored.
I just can't decide whether Ryukishi is trying to use reverse psychology or if he really wants us to believe Kinzo does not effect any game.
I'm pretty sure it was Battler who said that red. Lambda wouldn't use Grandfather to refer to Kinzo.

Also IIRC Ryukishi said he originally planned to reveal Kinzo was dead at the start in EP5, but he ended up doing it in EP4.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:42   Link #12068
Smeckledorf
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Lol, I don't actually think he is a culprit. But I see a bunch of yes-nos coming from Ryukishi. I just like how saying Kinzo is alive provokes people to respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm pretty sure it was Battler who said that red. Lambda wouldn't use Grandfather to refer to Kinzo.

Also IIRC Ryukishi said he originally planned to reveal Kinzo was dead at the start in EP5, but he ended up doing it in Ep4.
I will believe Kinzo is 100% dead during every single moment of every game if:
A. Battler steps off of the boat upon arrival to the island and trips right over Kinzo's dead body.
or
B. At the end of episode 8, Kinzo is never proven to be alive during any point of the game.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:48   Link #12069
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I will believe Kinzo is 100% dead during every single moment of every game if:
A. Battler steps off of the boat upon arrival to the island and trips right over Kinzo's dead body.
"In accordance with Master Kinzo's wishes, he was to be, and I quote, 'just left out on the dock for somebody to trip over, maybe Battler, that'd be funny.'"

"Yep."

"Sounds like father."

"I wouldn't put it past him."

"I think my ankle broke."

"Shut up, Battler."
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:52   Link #12070
Oliver
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Kinzo can also own a dead body. He can even do that legally.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:52   Link #12071
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Please make a maximally complete Kinzotrice theory so we can scare people with it in the future.
If you guys keep pushing this comedy theory I'm going to start making up red and gold to make sure it dies. You play dirty and I'll be willing to as well.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:57   Link #12072
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If you guys keep pushing this comedy theory I'm going to start making up red and gold to make sure it dies. You play dirty and I'll be willing to as well.
Aw come on, what exactly about it is dirty that isn't dirty about personality-death reliant Shkanon?
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:57   Link #12073
Renall
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Kinzo can also own a dead body. He can even do that legally.
Does that work in Japanese, though? In English you'd use a possessive which can be ambiguously constructed to mean "the corpse of the individual x" and "the corpse belonging to individual x, which may or may not be x's own body." I don't know for certain if Japanese does the same.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:58   Link #12074
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Aw come on, what exactly about it is dirty that isn't dirty about personality-death reliant Shkanon?
The theory isn't personality death reliant. LyricalAura's blue counts bodies not personalities. I'm still confused as to why Shannon and Kanon don't count from that.

What makes this theory dirty is that there is not enough red to counter it since i'm sure Ryuksihi didn't expect us to need that much to know he's dead.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:05   Link #12075
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Does that work in Japanese, though? In English you'd use a possessive which can be ambiguously constructed to mean "the corpse of the individual x" and "the corpse belonging to individual x, which may or may not be x's own body." I don't know for certain if Japanese does the same.
Mmm... I can't be sure either, but it feels that "Kinzo no shitai" can refer to both a dead Kinzo and a corpse owned by Kinzo. Generally it's easier to construct an ambiguous Japanese sentence than an English one.

In fact, we're very lucky Umineko is a written text rather than a spoken one, because once we get to the homophones, you can get horrible things like "Teikoku Kagekidan" which can be written to mean "Imperial Floral Defense Group" (a relatively normal sounding name for a special forces division) and an "Imperial Theatrical Troupe". Japanese is very rich in perfect puns like these.

EDIT: As a side note, in Russian it works the same as in English, so you have a complete equivalent to the ambiguity of "Kinzo's body".
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-29 at 14:16.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:14   Link #12076
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The theory isn't personality death reliant. LyricalAura's blue counts bodies not personalities. I'm still confused as to why Shannon and Kanon don't count from that.

What makes this theory dirty is that there is not enough red to counter it since i'm sure Ryuksihi didn't expect us to need that much to know he's dead.
If there were red to counter it... then I would not be using it. I would have to find another troll topic.
I believe I mentioned when I posted it, if Ryukishi wanted Kinzo to be a sure dead person then why would he leave holes in the red truths? I'm sure he could have had Battler use different wording in episode 5. Don't worry though, Kinzo is not a culprit.

Playing dirty would be if those red and gold truths were actual puns to say that Kinzo owned a corpse. I would literally be rolling on the floor if that were true. Not even just a person sitting down typing ROFL, it would be true.

I mean, you can blame it all on my roots. I showed up in boots and ruined your black-tie affair. On a similar note, I've Got Friends in Low Places is now officially Kinzo's theme song.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:25   Link #12077
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Playing dirty would be if those red and gold truths were actual puns to say that Kinzo owned a corpse. I would literally be rolling on the floor if that were true. Not even just a person sitting down typing ROFL, it would be true.
Well, in most cases, the reds actually say that Kinzo is dead, which says nothing about whether there's a corpse anywhere, so that wouldn't resurrect Kinzo alone.

It would, however, seriously mangle Battler's gold, because it actually says just that, "...kinzou no shitai dearuto hoshou suru".
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:28   Link #12078
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, in most cases, the reds actually say that Kinzo is dead, which says nothing about whether there's a corpse anywhere, so that wouldn't resurrect Kinzo alone.

It would, however, seriously mangle Battler's gold, because it actually says just that, "...kinzou no shitai dearuto hoshou suru".
Kinzo can refer to the family head as per Battler's blue truth, or it could be a personality. However, when his body is found burnt, I do think that is him.
I just love how every inch of my logic is just using crap that was meant to prove Kinzo is really dead. I need to do this at a busier time to get more fish on the hook.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:45   Link #12079
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So... Shkanon is true... Ghosterika is true and Kinzo is still alive and laughing like an idiot...
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:46   Link #12080
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Okay, on three everybody:

Wouldn't put it past him.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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