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Old 2010-06-29, 17:44   Link #12121
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Which means that... Battler 2 is the true heir to the Ushiromiya family?
By the original plan, he would be. But with This Battler leaving the family register, Kinzo have abandoned this plan (since he doesn't know of the swap and thinks that it's the Other Battler who betrayed him) and switched first to the epitaph, and then to the headship test or something similar to it that we don't see in detail. This would be why Beatrice cannot say in red that if Battler did not come back, the entire mess would not have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTR View Post
Beatrice existed before Battler was even born :/
Sure. Let us say "resurrection" then. :P
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:51   Link #12122
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Sorry to change the subject in here but...I was reading EP2 again...and Battler can't read the inscription near the chapel. He need someone to read it
AND ! there is some weird thing in here :
Spoiler for big:
Which precisely is the weird thing? m-b-t-q are for million-billion-trillion-quadrillion, as far as anyone knows, and we know from Ep4 it's actually "quadrillion" that's written on there.

EDIT: Oh, and what George is counting on his fingers is actually zeroes. A quadrillion contains 15 of those, which doesn't fit on both hands.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:54   Link #12123
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Actually if it's true, that means we can finally kill Battler 2
In the variant where Kinzo only wants Asumu's child because that is his own child, but does not care about Kyrie's, the Other Battler inevitably ends up stillborn from Asumu, (or even killed by Rudolf!) since that's the only way Kinzo's actions make sense.

In the variant where Kinzo wanted both children for some as of yet unknown reason, none of my blue here is possible and the Other Battler may still be alive.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:57   Link #12124
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Other child is brought into the Ushiromiya household age 6 to work as a maid?
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:08   Link #12125
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Other child is brought into the Ushiromiya household age 6 to work as a maid?
Only if Kinzo wanted both Kyrie's and Asumu's children for an unknown reason -- then this can happen but we lose the lead on why and whether any of the two is Kinzo's child. If he only wanted Asumu's, the Other Battler is definitely dead.

Basically, if Kinzo only wanted Asumu's child because it was his, the only reason to have the other child serve as a maid is because he knows of the baby swap, that is, if Kinzo found out about it within six years and took the child in.

But if he knew, he'd probably kill Rudolf himself, which is actually one other way for Rudolf to think he might get killed today -- if he believes that Kinzo is alive and someone is going to tell him of the baby swap. So Kinzo doesn't know.

That sort of leaves a window for Kanon to be Kinzo+Asumu's son though. Rudolf finding out about Kanon actually being the child he presumed to be dead would really give him an idea that Kinzo found out and surely is going to kill him for it. But then it would have to be the first time Rudolf heard about Kanon, and Kanon is said to have been working for three years. That would also require Kyrie to leave the child immediately on birth, which, if she thought it was Rudolf's child, is simply nonsense.

So if the Other Battler is Kinzo's fifth child, he has no room to exist on the board.

EDIT: Asumu remains the single biggest hole in the whole construct, because even if we assume she just carried Kinzo's own child but otherwise formed no close relationship to him, we still need to explain how could they possibly come in contact anyway to actually get Asumu pregnant. Could it be that Rudolf actually helped his father meet women by picking them up and introducing? That feels silly.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:22   Link #12126
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Shannon being the Other Battler would certainly make it a bit difficult for her to love Battler, though. Or George. You can just hear the banjos playing.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:28   Link #12127
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Shannon being the Other Battler would certainly make it a bit difficult for her to love Battler, though. Or George. You can just hear the banjos playing.
And Kanon being the Other Battler by accident would truly be vaudeville.

EDIT: Mind you, that gives a perfect motive to someone wanting to kill all the Ushiromiyas just to make sure this whole mess is very, very over.

EDIT EDIT: And actually, this construct also gives Rudolf a very good reason to get on his knees and beg Battler to come home, and do this specifically right now. Kinzo is expected to die any moment now, and Rudolf thinks that Kinzo thinks that Battler is Kinzo's fifth son and the designated real heir -- he doesn't know that Kinzo gave up on him yet, and thinks that Kinzo may reconsider if Battler comes back. If that real heir is not within the family when Kinzo dies, there's no telling whom Kinzo might give everything to - if anyone at all. Rudolf just knows very well that he's not getting anything, and neither are Krauss, Eva or Rosa. In Rudolf's current situation this would be really, really bad.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:32   Link #12128
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I think that's probably the most viable Nanjo Culprit theory.

"Man, I am just so sick of Kinzo's dumb family."
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:36   Link #12129
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Lol, all this talk of Battler 2 being Kinzo's 5th son does all sorts of funny if Kinzo were still alive. Imagine:

Kinzo: Battler, I AM YOUR FATHER!! All my plans for inheritance have come to fruition!

Battler: Sorry to break it to you grandfather but...Ange is my sister therefore I cannot be your son!

Kinzo:...USO DA!!!!

*credit to the guy who's responsible akai shinjitsu wa usoda. that stuff is hilarious.

edit: on a more serious note, maybe Kinzo did the same thing with Natsuhi and basically bought a trophy...concubine? It gets all sorts of weird when you think about Asumu's parents living with Battler and never telling him anything about that though.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:41   Link #12130
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Ugh, what a mess. Goddamnit, Rudolf.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:41   Link #12131
Oliver
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Actually, there's one other interesting possible consequence of this construct.

Someone on the island knows of the baby swap beside Rudolf

But how?
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:42   Link #12132
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New utterly insane theory:

We have red confirmation of only one person who is a blood relative of Kinzo: I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler.

Kinzo has only one heir, his grandchild, "Ushiromiya Battler." All of his children were also adopted, and by association, their children as well. Only "Ushiromiya Battler" actually descends from Kinzo. Therefore, only "Ushiromiya Battler" was ever intended to inherit the family. Kinzo's will (written or not) already considers the children disinherited, because they were never his children in the first place. Our Battler may or not be "Ushiromiya Battler." Ange is our Battler's sister, at least half. This does not preclude him being Kinzo's descendant where Ange is not, if the parent they do not share is the one that claims biological descent from Kinzo.

Well, I wouldn't put i- wait, Oliver, put the gun down!

EDIT: I suppose "Ushiromiya Battler" could also be female really.

EDIT EDIT: Rudolf knew this and swapped Kyrie's son - whom he truly loved - for Asumu's, to ensure that Kinzo believed his son was Kinzo's biological son. Battler's subsequent abandonment of the family drove Kinzo to do the epitaph [bombing] instead. Asumu's son may have itself been a coverup for Kinzo's child, which may or may not have been given to Natsuhi first and survived, or may not have existed at all!
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:43   Link #12133
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My memory is kinda shot right now in terms of small details, but why do you say that Oliver?
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:45   Link #12134
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But... if his kids are adopted... where does his grandson come from??
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:46   Link #12135
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Additionally, if there is a legitimate parent to give birth to this grandchild...why aren't they a legitimate heir?

edit: wait...that would imply that Asumu was Kinzo's lone legitimate child and since she's dead...gah, stop trying to confuse me Renall!
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:47   Link #12136
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Well obviously he has one real child, but it's not his four "children" from his fake marriage.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:47   Link #12137
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We have red confirmation of only one person who is a blood relative of Kinzo: I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler.

Kinzo has only one heir, his grandchild, "Ushiromiya Battler." All of his children were also adopted, and by association, their children as well. Only "Ushiromiya Battler" actually descends from Kinzo. Therefore, only "Ushiromiya Battler" was ever intended to inherit the family. Kinzo's will (written or not) already considers the children disinherited, because they were never his children in the first place. Our Battler may or not be "Ushiromiya Battler." Ange is our Battler's sister, at least half. This does not preclude him being Kinzo's descendant where Ange is not, if the parent they do not share is the one that claims biological descent from Kinzo.

Well, I wouldn't put i- wait, Oliver, put the gun down!

EDIT: I suppose "Ushiromiya Battler" could also be female really.
Actually, this is less far-fetched than you may think, IF Asumu is Beatrice-2. Then, Kinzo considers all of his children from his legal wife disinherited by default, because they come from a marriage that was forced on him, and "Ushiromiya Battler", child of Kinzo+Asumu, would be the only child he considers 'his' and the only one eligible.

We don't know much about Asumu's age, but it would match.

EDIT: It actually does match if Asumu is born in 1949, which fits the timeline rather nicely.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:52   Link #12138
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
My memory is kinda shot right now in terms of small details, but why do you say that Oliver?
Two reasons.
  1. Meta-Beatrice knows about it. Sure, she is otherwise godlike in terms of knowing things, but not necessarily, and it also comes up in Ep4... which was written by Featherinne, who either researched it somehow or invented it.
  2. "Being afraid Kinzo will be told of the baby swap" is far better a reason for Rudolf to think he will be killed today than "Being afraid that one of his siblings will kill him for these shenanigans after finding out Battler is the designated heir." Fear of Kinzo is ingrown and all-consuming, fear of siblings... he knows they'll cheat him, sure, but fearing one of them might actually kill him loses to the fear of the almighty Father.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:52   Link #12139
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Additional support for this:
  • Battler is said to have inherited Asumu's fears. Kinzo's children are said to have inherited certain traits from him. Since Battler is not Asumu's biological son, this is a hint that merely being nurtured to be like a parent does not prove you are biologically related.
  • Kinzo tells Natsuhi in the baby flashback not to worry about the legitimacy of the child because it carries his blood. Technically, he has never made this guarantee for anyone else.
  • The MF19YA seems to believe himself to be the heir apparent. He would have been, were he raised to be Jessica's elder brother, but he isn't now... unless he always was, by dint of having the most legitimate claim as Kinzo's biological heir and favored child.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:59   Link #12140
Oliver
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Actually, do we have it that This Battler is Kinzo's grandchild in red? Sure, Beatrice may say that she have started the game to fight .... wait.

What if Beatrice refers to a different game? Not the one about solving murders... about committing murders?
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