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Old 2010-06-29, 22:28   Link #12201
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Eva died in 1998 even though the red says "nobody escapes" via Battler's sin. So it is kind of likely that there is no time restriction and that Asumu died later without it being just silly "FALL FALL FALL!!!" antics
Actually, Eva's lifespan was very clearly shortened by the whole thing. She might have not died directly, but whether it was heart disease or any other cause, she died at least ten years earlier than she should have - when she was no older than 70.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'd still put my money on her death being due to a fall, though.

Maybe even off the same cliff...
That would certainly be poetic, but I suspect lingering consequences of the head trauma. Stroke or aneurysm or something in that, ahem, vein.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:29   Link #12202
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'd still put my money on her death being due to a fall, though.

Maybe even off the same cliff...
Battler has to have known her for at least 12 years of his life though. She can still die that way. It'd just be weird if she died a year before he was born.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:30   Link #12203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, Eva's lifespan was very clearly shortened by the whole thing.
That's exactly it. She never escaped at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That would certainly be poetic, but I suspect lingering consequences of the head trauma. Stroke or aneurysm or something in that, ahem, vein.
What, 13 years later? I don't know, I always got the impression that Battler was somehow responsible.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Battler has to have known her for at least 12 years of his life though. She can still die that way. It'd just be weird if she died a year before he was born.
No, I mean that she fell off the same cliff in 1980 that she fell off back in 1967.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:32   Link #12204
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I'd just like to point out that Asumu being Beatrice-2 would make it kind of hard for her to hook up with Rudolf in college.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:34   Link #12205
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'd just like to point out that Asumu being Beatrice-2 would make it kind of hard for her to hook up with Rudolf in college.
Why?

Rudolf would have been college-age in 1967. Furthermore, this theory assumes that Kinzo gave Beatrice-2 to Rudolf, after he impregnated her.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:38   Link #12206
Oliver
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Kinzo would essentially have to set up an identity for Asumu for this to work anyway, and why couldn't identity include college.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:39   Link #12207
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why?

Rudolf would have been college-age in 1967. Furthermore, this theory assumes that Kinzo gave Beatrice-2 to Rudolf, after he impregnated her.
Kyrie said she kept tabs on Asumu in college. It would be difficult for Asumu to get admitted in the case that she'd been locked in an isolated mansion for 19 years instead of going to school.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:40   Link #12208
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What, 13 years later? I don't know, I always got the impression that Battler was somehow responsible.
Ok, knock her over, she falls and hits the already weak point in her skull on a corner of the table and dies from a fall fall which would only heave a normal person with a headache. Easy.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:40   Link #12209
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'd just like to point out that Asumu being Beatrice-2 would make it kind of hard for her to hook up with Rudolf in college.
I would just like to say that assuming she did go to college it's probably about the same as a trip to Niijima for Jessica. But then the existence of Beatrice in that mansion isn't really a big secret and part of that conversation with Rosa is a lie. After all they never said "A conversation like that between her and Rosa really happened" in red.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:42   Link #12210
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Kyrie said she kept tabs on Asumu in college. It would be difficult for Asumu to get admitted in the case that she'd been locked in an isolated mansion for 19 years instead of going to school.
Home education. The scene from 1967 is actually from soon after the fall, where the visible damage is healed and hidden by her bun, but Beatrice-2 is still acting like an amnesiac. Rudolf is actually correct about his original estimate of 20 years because he knows something.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:43   Link #12211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Kyrie said she kept tabs on Asumu in college. It would be difficult for Asumu to get admitted in the case that she'd been locked in an isolated mansion for 19 years instead of going to school.
Oh, look at all of Kinzo's money.

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Ok, knock her over, she falls and hits the already weak point in her skull on a corner of the table and dies from a fall fall which would only heave a normal person with a headache. Easy.
Huh. No wonder Battler doesn't want to remember six years ago, if that's true.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
After all they never said "A conversation like that between her and Rosa really happened" in red.
Between Beatrice-2 and Kinzo, yes. Not Beatrice-2 and Rosa. People often make this mistake.

There's no evidence that Rosa ever found Kuwadorian at all.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:49   Link #12212
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Quote:
Rudolf would have been college-age in 1967. Furthermore, this theory assumes that Kinzo gave Beatrice-2 to Rudolf, after he impregnated her.
I'm not really sure about that Kaisos.

Kyrie's claim that her hell lasted 18 years implies that there's at least 6 years of hell before Asumu married Rudolf.

In 1968 Asumu Rudolf and Kyrie had been knowing each other for 6 years.

From kyrie's talks we know that at the time they met Rudolf was sleeping with several women, so he certainly wasn't a kid.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:52   Link #12213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Rudolf would have been college-age in 1967. Furthermore, this theory assumes that Kinzo gave Beatrice-2 to Rudolf, after he impregnated her.
I still want Rudolf (or Krauss) to be the father. Rudolf can't know all of this is going on and not be Jessica's father. Breaking it to her that her father is Rudolf might be kind of cool even if her real parents adopted her. Kinzo being the father is just creepy and it doesn't have to be Kinzo for him to give her to him. Especially if his experiment failed.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:54   Link #12214
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kyrie's claim that her hell lasted 18 years implies that there's at least 6 years of hell before Asumu married Rudolf.

In 1968 Asumu Rudolf and Kyrie had been knowing each other for 6 years.
  1. Actually, one does not necessarily follow from the other.
  2. Rosa's story may actually be half bunk, with Beatrice-2 playing with the nice kid that showed up who obviously thinks Beatrice-2 is a witch. If the conversation that is seen in red with Kinzo putting the moves on her occurs soon after the fall when she is recovering, she simply does not remember what her life really was like.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:56   Link #12215
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Oliver what's the relation between my quote and your answer? I don't see any...
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:56   Link #12216
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not really sure about that Kaisos.

Kyrie's claim that her hell lasted 18 years implies that there's at least 6 years of hell before Asumu married Rudolf.

In 1968 Asumu Rudolf and Kyrie had been knowing each other for 6 years.

From kyrie's talks we know that at the time they met Rudolf was sleeping with several women, so he certainly wasn't a kid.
why do 6 years and 12 years keep popping up?
  • Battler's sin was 6 years ago
  • Kyrie and Rudolf knew Asumu for 6 years in 1968
  • Asumu died 6 years before 1986
  • Ange is 6 years old in 1986
  • Battler knew Asumu for 12 years
  • Everyone died in an accident 12 years ago
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:57   Link #12217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kyrie's claim that her hell lasted 18 years implies that there's at least 6 years of hell before Asumu married Rudolf.
She's talking about Battler's existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
From kyrie's talks we know that at the time they met Rudolf was sleeping with several women, so he certainly wasn't a kid.
Rudolf has probably been sleeping around since he was in high school. Furthermore, he probably would have been in his 20s in 1967... I wouldn't call that a 'kid'.

Quote:
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why do 6 years and 12 years keep popping up?
It's called a "theme".
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Old 2010-06-29, 23:00   Link #12218
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I still want Rudolf (or Krauss) to be the father. Rudolf can't know all of this is going on and not be Jessica's father. Breaking it to her that her father is Rudolf might be kind of cool even if her real parents adopted her. Kinzo being the father is just creepy and it doesn't have to be Kinzo for him to give her to him. Especially if his experiment failed.
Actually, a relaxed variant of the theory is possible, in which Rudolf is the father of both babies, but Asumu is still Kinzo's idea, an attempt to breed Beatrice with the child he thinks inherits his blood the strongest, since he's worried Beatrice-2 won't last long after the fall. The rest of the logic remains the same.
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Old 2010-06-29, 23:03   Link #12219
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oliver what's the relation between my quote and your answer? I don't see any...
~_~

What we think we know about Beatrice-2's life being supremely sheltered is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for her to even go to college and live in Kuwadorian, if the scene from 1967 that is confirmed in red occurs soon after she fell from the cliff and (temporarily) lost much of her memory. This does not even contradict Rosa's story if Beatrice-2 decided that she's going to play with the nice Rosa who showed up and pretend to be a hidden princess.
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"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
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Old 2010-06-29, 23:04   Link #12220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
She's talking about Battler's existence.
Rudolf has probably been sleeping around since he was in high school. Furthermore, he probably would have been in his 20s in 1967... I wouldn't call that a 'kid'.
No she's not talking about Battler's existence. You see her hell ended after 18 years. And moreover Rosa without everyone telling her anything she also says that Kyrie's hell lasted 18 years. This is not some obscure secret we are talking about. That hell ended when Asumu died and Kyrie married Rudolf, and that means it started in 1962.

In 1962 Rudolf must have been already in college, because absolutely nothing suggests that Kyrie attended high school in niijima as Rudolf certainly did.

Quote:
~_~

What we think we know about Beatrice-2's life being supremely sheltered is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for her to even go to college and live in Kuwadorian, if the scene from 1967 that is confirmed in red occurs soon after she fell from the cliff and (temporarily) lost much of her memory. This does not even contradict Rosa's story if Beatrice-2 decided that she's going to play with the nice Rosa who showed up and pretend to be a hidden princess.
And where I was talking about Beatrice-2? I was talking about Kyrie.
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