AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-29, 23:07   Link #12221
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That hell ended when Asumu died and Kyrie married Rudolf, and that means it started in 1962.
It however does not mean that it had to have started with Asumu being present for it, since other women are numerously mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And where I was talking about Beatrice-2? I was talking about Kyrie.
You say that Kyrie and Asumu knew each other for six years before Battler's birth. I explain how it is still possible for Asumu to be Beatrice-2 even if that is true.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:18   Link #12222
delita-umw-
Wild Speculator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
Sorry Jan, but I just reread that scene where she talks about the 18 years of suffering and I'm going to have to agree with Kaisos. During the talk about 18 years, she also mentions that she sees Asumu in Battler every time she sees him and further goes to say that shes going to suffer for all eternity.

edit: exact text here: "...I don't blame Rudolf-san. That woman used her body as a weapon to seduce him...[blahblah] And every time I look at Battler-kun,...I think that if only my own child had been born, he would be the same age. I am still jealous of her, tormented by her. Even now, and from now on. In the future, for all of eternity...[blahblah] How could you understand the madness of a woman whose man was stolen from her, and who has burned with envy for 18 years...!!"

Basically, how could her suffering have ended after 18 years if it STILL hasn't ended?

Last edited by delita-umw-; 2010-06-29 at 23:29.
delita-umw- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:26   Link #12223
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Sorry Jan, but I just reread that scene where she talks about the 18 years of suffering and I'm going to have to agree with Kaisos. During the talk about 18 years, she also mentions that she sees Asumu in Battler every time she sees him and further goes to say that shes going to suffer for all eternity.
I think Jan is referring to Kyrie's talk about Asumu in EP 6 rather than in EP 3. In EP 6 she tells Jessica about how she suffered through hell for 18 years, which ended when Asumu died apparently (if I'm recalling correctly, since I haven't glanced at EP 6 in a while). Asumu died in 1980, so 1980 - 18 = 1962.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:28   Link #12224
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Sorry Jan, but I just reread that scene where she talks about the 18 years of suffering and I'm going to have to agree with Kaisos. During the talk about 18 years, she also mentions that she sees Asumu in Battler every time she sees him and further goes to say that shes going to suffer for all eternity.
She definitely says that her hell ended:

私は幸運よ。@その地獄が18年で終わったから

and this is what Rosa said

Quote:
男を寝取られても、彼女は18年間、辛抱強く待った。@
自暴自棄にならず、それでもなお留弗夫の側で支え、じっと伏して奇跡を待ったのだ……。\
Even if her man was stolen from her, she endured it for 18 years.
while in despair, she still supported Rudolf, patiently and meekly waiting for a miracle.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:29   Link #12225
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Hell didn't end when Asumu died - it ended when Rudolf married Kyrie. Therefore it need not have started when Asumu showed up on the horizon, either.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:32   Link #12226
delita-umw-
Wild Speculator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
Mmm, my apologies then Jan. I haven't read ep 6 yet, so I wasn't aware of that conversation.
delita-umw- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:37   Link #12227
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
...Yeah, I'd have to say that basically kills this theory.

Damn, it was perfect, too.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:37   Link #12228
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Hell didn't end when Asumu died - it ended when Rudolf married Kyrie. Therefore it need not have started when Asumu showed up on the horizon, either.
But what Rosa says implies the hell started when Rudolf was stolen from Kyrie, and Kyrie is quite clear in saying that all the other girls were meaningless for Rudolf and had absolutely no chance. Only Asumu managed to steal Rudolf from her.

Unless ryuukishi messed up something... there's really not many way around this.

anyway according to my previous calculations Rudolf's birthday must be between 1940 and 1950
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:44   Link #12229
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But what Rosa says implies the hell started when Rudolf was stolen from Kyrie, and Kyrie is quite clear in saying that all the other girls were meaningless for Rudolf and had absolutely no chance. Only Asumu managed to steal Rudolf from her.
And how exactly does Rosa know all that, considering that she was 12-15 years old at the time of Battler's birth and 6-9 years at the time of the start of the supposed hell?

There may well be some other piece of the puzzle on Kyrie's end that makes it all match. I wouldn't declare the theory dead just yet, the "Faaall faall" fits too well.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:53   Link #12230
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
It doesn't really matter what age Rosa was at that time, she didn't witness it anyway. It is quite obvious that Rosa only knows what Kyrie told her.

and in fact what Rosa says is consistent with what Kyrie says. The reason I quote Rosa is to avoid speculations on some other obscure reasons for Kyrie's hell to have lasted 18 years. Like for example: "kyrie is the killer so she knows everyone will die and therefore her hell ends now".

Such theories won't work because she wouldn't certainly tell Rosa such a thing. If Rosa believes that Kyrie's hell lasted 18 years and that it started from the time she lost Rudolf till the time she married him, it means that this story is consistent with facts. Rosa isn't stupid she's able to do 2+2 and notice that something is amiss if Rudolf couldn't have met and date Asumu in1962.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-29, 23:58   Link #12231
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And how exactly does Rosa know all that, considering that she was 12-15 years old at the time of Battler's birth and 6-9 years at the time of the start of the supposed hell?
Actually Rosa and Kyrie should have a pretty good relationship from what they say to each other in the question arcs. She might have told her about it. Their relationship is one of the possible reasons for why the Kyrosa sprite error happened in EP5. See my sig.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 00:01   Link #12232
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
When do you think Kyrie first actually met Asumu, then?

Because there's another possibility that remains. The Asumu identity needs to have come from somewhere, well, why not a real Asumu that Rudolf really knew?

EDIT: And incidentally... 1962-1963 is also the birth date range for ...George.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 00:18   Link #12233
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post

EDIT: And incidentally... 1962-1963 is also the birth date range for ...George.
I also noticed that. The best I can make of that is if I round up and make the marriage happen at barely 19 years of hell than George was born 19 years before they married. Or if he was born in 1961 he'd be born the year before the 18 years of hell.

There isn't much I can do with that time scale. Interesting how you can relate Ange and George's births to the same event though. And how it can come to 19.

Well if it's a hint that George and Ange are connected somehow both of them were bullied as kids and have at least some interest in the occult. George may have gotten interested for a different reason though. I can speculate that they had the same kind of life.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 00:39   Link #12234
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if it's a hint that George and Ange are connected somehow both of them were bullied as kids and have at least some interest in the occult. George may have gotten interested for a different reason though. I can speculate that they had the same kind of life.
Huh? I don't recall George having an interest in occult. Only time he mentioned it was when he said that if magic could revive Shannon then he would try it.

Ange's interest in the occult isn't even as much as the occult as it is in Maria and her magical world.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 02:41   Link #12235
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Huh? I don't recall George having an interest in occult. Only time he mentioned it was when he said that if magic could revive Shannon then he would try it.
No that's not true. It's somewhere in episode 2 or 3. He talks about the scorpion charm like he knew about it all along (Klyon99 was like How F@$& does he know? when he saw that). And when Maria talks about the occult in the chapel he gives some info that impresses Battler and implies he has his own sources about it. That and I don't think he'd mention in his own narration that westerners don't cremate bodies so they could be revived in 3 days if he didn't have some kind of general knowledge about the occult and western culture.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-30 at 02:53.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 03:03   Link #12236
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if it's a hint that George and Ange are connected somehow both of them were bullied as kids and have at least some interest in the occult. George may have gotten interested for a different reason though. I can speculate that they had the same kind of life.
If that's a connection then for the same reasons you should add Maria.

Quote:
When do you think Kyrie first actually met Asumu, then?
Kyrie claims that she knew Asumu even before Rudolf knew what was her name. Asumu was one of the many Rudolf fans that swarmed around him. This must have happened during college days... at any rate Asumu wasn't the first to come, Rudolf at that point had already established a big entourage.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 04:48   Link #12237
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
No that's not true. It's somewhere in episode 2 or 3. He talks about the scorpion charm like he knew about it all along (Klyon99 was like How F@$& does he know? when he saw that). And when Maria talks about the occult in the chapel he gives some info that impresses Battler and implies he has his own sources about it. That and I don't think he'd mention in his own narration that westerners don't cremate bodies so they could be revived in 3 days if he didn't have some kind of general knowledge about the occult and western culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Huh? I don't recall George having an interest in occult. Only time he mentioned it was when he said that if magic could revive Shannon then he would try it.
Yah... that was actually a few chapters into EP1, when the cousins and Shannon was at the beach. George was the one to suggest "some kind of charm" when Maria was complaining that Jessica and Beatrice didn't believe in Beatrice and that they would be cursed. Maria did not bring up the idea of a charm or protection... George did. How did he know she even had a charm?

Then he backs up what Maria said that the scorpion was meant to ward off magic. Not to mention earlier he backs up Shannon's story about Beatrice. There was more too, all in one scene at the beginning of the story.


Maybe he was being nice, but as Judoh and others have noted he keeps spouting off more magic knowledge later in the series... so...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if it's a hint that George and Ange are connected somehow both of them were bullied as kids and have at least some interest in the occult. George may have gotten interested for a different reason though. I can speculate that they had the same kind of life.
I was thinking around EP2 or so that the 'theme' of the series was supposed to be a bit similar to Higurashi, in that 'Why do good people do bad things?' In this case, watching all that stuff about Maria and Rosa, I thought the theme in this series was, "The abused becomes the abuser." But... does that continue to hold true? Kinzo -> kids -> grandkids? Erika's BF -> Erika -> everyone else? Someone tortured Bernkastel and now she likes torturing other people?

If that theme does hold, are there things about people we haven't seen yet that indicates that pattern continues? Like.. George? (He seems to be our favorite new guy to pick on now... :3 )
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 05:14   Link #12238
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kyrie claims that she knew Asumu even before Rudolf knew what was her name. Asumu was one of the many Rudolf fans that swarmed around him. This must have happened during college days... at any rate Asumu wasn't the first to come, Rudolf at that point had already established a big entourage.
Well, I think I'll have to shelve the theory until I can read the Ep6 in full and then collect every single bit Kyrie says about Asumu.

But I'm pretty sure that a reasonable interpretation has to be possible where nothing stops Asumu[trice] from appearing out of the blue and Kyrie still thinking about her 18 years of hell.

After all, if Natsuhi is allowed a false memory, why isn't Kyrie?
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 06:14   Link #12239
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
By the way - just found a TIP about split personalities in the first Higurashi game. According to it, split personalities are a "way of escape" often caused by child abuse, although genes also input. So... split personalities wouldn't be completely impossible in Umineko.

As for the family affairs... I'm beginning to think an archivist did the killings since they would be far easier than actually making a family tree.
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-30, 07:10   Link #12240
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
As for the family affairs... I'm beginning to think an archivist did the killings since they would be far easier than actually making a family tree.
That's a Nanjo Culprit theory.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.