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Old 2010-06-30, 09:20   Link #12241
Oliver
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Not so random. Highly ridiculous. Might be serous nonetheless.

What if Kyrie was jealous of different people in different times, for a grand total of 18 years, and the first person she was jealous of was not Asumu, but ... ... ..Eva?

Because Eva bore Rudolf's child.

Why is it even possible to consider? Here.
  • Natsuhi unsuccessfully "tried to get pregnant" for 12 years. Which means she married Krauss in 1956.
  • Eva's idea to hijack heirship through her child came to her six months after this marriage, probably in 1956 as well.
  • If it was Eva who noticed that Natsuhi is not getting pregnant, Kinzo could not have been far behind. That was Eva's bargaining chip.
  • One would expect her to complete her bargaining and get Hideyoshi into the family as soon as possible, just in case Natsuhi gets lucky.
  • George has been born in 1962-1963. There's a 7 year gap!
  • Which could mean that Eva was actually not able to get pregnant from Hideyoshi, under threat from Kinzo revoking his favour due to Eva's failure to deliver, and she resorted to Rudolf...
  • ...and Kyrie was the only person he told.

Renall's idea that all the people we know as Kinzo's children are actually adopted, so children between them actually share no genes meshes with that well.

And Rudolf might end up the father of all four people known as Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchildren, (Remember, Maria's father is unknown).

Yes, I'm pretty sure the murders would have to have been committed by an archivist after that.
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Old 2010-06-30, 09:52   Link #12242
Verg Avesta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And Rudolf might end up the father of all four people known as Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchildren, (Remember, Maria's father is unknown).
The mere thought is is scary. I always guessed there could be some wincest in that family, but to that extent...
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Old 2010-06-30, 09:56   Link #12243
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
The mere thought is is scary. I always guessed there could be some wincest in that family, but to that extent...
Not enough evidence...
...yet.

EDIT: The next thought on the logical chain is that there has to be something responsible for such problems with pregnancy, and it is probably tied to the island itself...
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Old 2010-06-30, 10:02   Link #12244
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not enough evidence...
...yet.

EDIT: The next thought on the logical chain is that there has to be something responsible for such problems with pregnancy, and it is probably tied to the island itself...
And once again, we wind up just a polar bear away from Lost...

I was mostly kidding about the adoption thing. Absence of evidence that Kinzo is the biological father of his children does not itself prove they aren't. And I've never really doubted the parentage of anybody but Battler and maybe Jessica.

I mean, could it be true? I guess... but is it really ever hinted? You'd think Kinzo's wife would kinda notice. She seemed more concerned with where he was running off to than you'd figure she would be if she suspected he had a "real" child.
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Old 2010-06-30, 10:12   Link #12245
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean, could it be true? I guess... but is it really ever hinted? You'd think Kinzo's wife would kinda notice. She seemed more concerned with where he was running off to than you'd figure she would be if she suspected he had a "real" child.
Well, no, it wasn't hinted, so we really have no grounds to suggest that, but then the incest in the family tangles the family tree so much that I'd rather suggest it anyway.

Mind you, I don't seriously think this is it, yet, but I do think the Beatrice2==Asumu fits very well if it were not for Kyrie's jealousy "for 18 years" and the above is one possible way it could have started six years early.

I mean, wouldn't she be jealous because someone else gets to have Rudolf's first child?...
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Old 2010-06-30, 10:39   Link #12246
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The Ushiromiya men have a genetic disposition towards impotence??
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Old 2010-06-30, 11:02   Link #12247
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
The Ushiromiya men have a genetic disposition towards impotence??
Or the island is somehow responsible, see volcanic gases hypotheses. Rudolf is either mysteriously immune or just lucky.

EDIT: Abstract addendum.

Even individual component parts and minor variations of this entire mess of a theory sink whole fleets of ships -- ships which Ryukishi is passively encouraging otherwise... Which is why a plot like this would be the perfect thing to pull to keep the proper solution in the dark for as long as possible.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-30 at 11:24.
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Old 2010-06-30, 11:41   Link #12248
Oliver
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Tangent.

07151129 hypotheses. Even two of them. I think both are fresh, or at least well-forgotten.
  • Hypothesis 1:
    The number is actually not a message from anyone who had known it previously.
    It is actually possible and obvious to derive it from an otherwise well-known set of values.
    The author of the message did so without any knowledge that it was used as a pin code for the safety deposit boxes -- they actually thought that whoever they meant the message for must have also derived the number in the same manner or would otherwise be able to decode it. The intended recipient happens to be Beatrice-of-the-money. This is not at all a coincidence, because their choice to use this number as a pin code is likewise not random and based on the same logic.

    Basically someone discovered something about Beatrice's nature and wants to get in touch with her, is but doesn't know who she is -- so they leave a message they expect Beatrice will understand, based on what they have discovered.
  • Hypothesis 2:
    The message actually means something very silly like BATTLER+BEATRICE=LOVE.

It is possible for both of these hypotheses to be true.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:40   Link #12249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
(Remember, Maria's father is unknown).
But according to Rosa in EP6, Maria's father went oversea and then vanished after leaving her promised bride with a tons of debts to pay.

Of course you might still think this is a lie either from the Game Master Battler or some Rosa delusion to cover the incestuous truth...
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:46   Link #12250
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Of course you might still think this is a lie either from the Game Master Battler or some Rosa delusion to cover the incestuous truth...
It's not like I'm pushing for it, three grandchildren out of four should be a good enough score even for a very greedy Rudolf.

Mind you, I don't think this is it either, but something is fishy here... George's family history is strangely too smooth and clean compared to any of his cousins, and he is born strangely late.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:55   Link #12251
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Do we have any guess at when Hideyoshi and Eva got married? If they got married after Natsuhi and Krauss it might not be so weird to have that 7 year gap especially if you go by a theory that says Natsuhi was too young to have kids at the time or that they decided to finally have one later. Or that convincing Kinzo to let Hideyoshi into the family took awhile.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:58   Link #12252
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Do we have any guess at when Hideyoshi and Eva got married? If they got married after Natsuhi and Krauss it might not be so weird to have that 7 year gap especially if you go by a theory that says Natsuhi was too young to have kids at the time or that they decided to finally have one later. Or that convincing Kinzo to let Hideyoshi into the family took awhile.
It's implied that Eva got pregnant not too long after her marriage, so probably around the early 1960's, late 1950's. Krauss and Natsuhi on the other hand were married for 12 years before Jessica was born.
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Old 2010-06-30, 13:03   Link #12253
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If we look at how Hideyoshi and Eva are, i wouldnt be surprised that Eva checked his background first before even dating in order to look for a man who'd impress Kinzo which is why it took long. Hideyoshi has no family, and his business grew from 0 and succeeded, its just all too perfect for Eva. Was Eva already married to him before his business started?
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Old 2010-06-30, 13:17   Link #12254
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Do we have any guess at when Hideyoshi and Eva got married? If they got married after Natsuhi and Krauss it might not be so weird to have that 7 year gap especially if you go by a theory that says Natsuhi was too young to have kids at the time or that they decided to finally have one later. Or that convincing Kinzo to let Hideyoshi into the family took awhile.
No, we don't know that for sure. But Natsuhi being too young to give birth at the time would make a marriage illegal.

You see, Eva gets her idea to hijack heirship by observing the marriage of Krauss+Natsuhi for six months. This is about when the signs of pregnancy would become immediately obvious, and Eva's idea is obviously influenced by the fact that they weren't there.

The very idea wouldn't occur to Eva if she didn't think Krauss and Natsuhi are trying for a baby, or should be. If Eva thought Natsuhi doesn't want to have a child, the idea would be doomed to fail, as then there is no chance for Eva to find a suitable partner and give birth before Natsuhi changes her mind under pressure, let alone convince Kinzo.

Therefore, Eva has to assume that Natsuhi is trying, but it isn't working.

But unless Eva has a guarantee that Natsuhi cannot get pregnant, she needs to act very fast because with time, if Natsuhi has a static low probability of getting pregnant, the probability of a child that will shut Eva off from her plan approaches 1.

It may have taken a year or two to convince Kinzo, granted. However, he would not be receptive to the idea at all if he did not want a grandchild, and Eva would not think of the plan if she didn't think Krauss and Natsuhi are trying to have one or should be. Therefore, Kinzo expected the child of his eldest son as soon as possible. Which means that Kinzo's resolve not to let an outsider into the family should have weakened relatively fast.

I find it very unlikely for Kinzo to be waiting for seven years, which is why I find the gap so problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
It's implied that Eva got pregnant not too long after her marriage, so probably around the early 1960's, late 1950's. Krauss and Natsuhi on the other hand were married for 12 years before Jessica was born.
George is 23 years old, that much is known. Jessica is 18. 12-5=7 year gap.
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Old 2010-06-30, 13:52   Link #12255
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I provided what I think to be a decent answer for 07151129.

Seriously though, Rudolph tapping both Eva and Rosa? I mean Maria is probably retarded but really? I interject my theory, Rudolph impregnated his mother, Kumasawa, Eva, Rosa, Asumu, human Beatrice, and 12 other people. BALLER! Wasn't it said that Kinzo disliked Rudolph?

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Old 2010-06-30, 13:54   Link #12256
ijriims
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New tips from Ryu07 (copied from Umineko wiki):

Spoiler for Longggg:



Care to explain what it says? (My meager knowledge of Japanese told me that it is related to Shkanon...)
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Old 2010-06-30, 13:57   Link #12257
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Seriously though, Rudolph tapping both Eva and Rosa? I mean Maria is probably retarded but really? I interject my theory, Rudolph impregnated his mother, Kumasawa, Eva, Rosa, Asumu, human Beatrice, and 17 other people. BALLER! Wasn't it said that Kinzo disliked Rudolph?
I did say it was highly ridiculous even before I described it, didn't I. The conclusion for it obviously is. But the argument isn't!

You're naturally welcome to explain why was Eva dilly-dallying for seven years rather than three, or consider the entire matter completely inconsequential like everyone else does every time I bring it up, I don't mind either way.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:01   Link #12258
Smeckledorf
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You bring up a lot of things that I think to be inconsequential. Just kidding.
Finding a husband Kinzo won't hate is pretty tough, I mean he hates all of his children pretty much. Kinzo didn't tell all of his children to immediately get married either. Maybe Eva was waiting because she knew Natsuhi would not get pregnant. Maybe Eva had a hand in it?
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:07   Link #12259
Marion
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Mind putting that under a spoiler tag, ijriims?
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:09   Link #12260
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Finding a husband Kinzo won't hate is pretty tough, I mean he hates all of his children pretty much. Kinzo didn't tell all of his children to immediately get married either.
One would think that by the fourth year with no grandchild, Kinzo would become a bit less picky.

Which actually raises an interesting point.
  • If Kinzo was really so displeased with all his children, why have four of them?
  • For that matter, why have the latter two spread out with such huge age gaps? Rosa is particularly glaring.

EDIT: Regarding Eva having a hand in it: Plausible - but how, considering that according to Natsuhi's narration, Natsuhi is perfectly healthy in this regard?
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-30 at 14:20.
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