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Old 2010-06-30, 19:20   Link #12321
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now... if it wasn't for that red claiming that Natsuhi is pure, I'd say that Krauss isn't Jessica's father...
Pure and faithful can be interpreted to mean her intentions, like she never would mean to 'cheat' on Krauss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Unfortunately, oral contraceptives were first approved for medical use in 1960. In US. They simply didn't exist at the time Krauss and Natsuhi married, and were not available legally in Japan up until well into the 90s, so Eva would need to jump hoops to get them -- no internet for mail ordering suspicious drugs yet.

Most common packages also contain different pills in the same package, often looking the same, which need to be taken in order or they don't work, so you can't simply switch them for headache medicine and expect the same results.
Approved for medical use and available to rich people are two different things.
Eva would do something illegal? Nah, not poor, sweet, mentally scarred, crazy, spiteful Eva.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:21   Link #12322
Sentou
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Well, Natsuhi can be called pure even though she was hiding a dead man's body from the entirety of her family, but I agree, Oliver.

However, Jessica's origin still remains rather dubious.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:24   Link #12323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I'm not sure she could be called technically pure in this case, though.
If her love for her husband is so pure she'd try to become pregnant with someone else for his sake... I guess it's a subjective term, though.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:29   Link #12324
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Approved for medical use and available to rich people are two different things.
Eva would do something illegal? Nah, not poor, sweet, mentally scarred, crazy, spiteful Eva.
Available for medical trials in 1957. In US. At least a year after Krauss married Natsuhi. "Available for medical trials" means that production lines for these pills don't exist yet, they are cooked up in laboratories as needed. Before 1957, they simply do not exist -- only specialists have even heard that they might be created.

It's not that it's illegal that's the problem, it's more about having very long connections in very specialised circles, abroad, which a poor, sweet, mentally scarred, crazy, spiteful Eva cannot possibly have yet. Up about until George is born, The Pill falls under "unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices", sorry.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:37   Link #12325
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As a side note one of the first sperm banks was one that opened in Tokyo Japan in 1965
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Old 2010-06-30, 20:25   Link #12326
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If, in the narrative, no one can identify a problem with Natsuhi that would prevent her pregnancy, we can only conclude either that some generally unknown and unidentifiable circumstance prevented it, or Krauss has a problem.

The mere fact that Krauss is seeking treatments or methods for her to get pregnant could be projection. He fears his own sterility or relative inability to impregnate his wife, so he wants to believe it's all her fault. Kinzo would probably support that conclusion.

Again, it makes perfect sense why they couldn't have a baby after all that time without any external problems if one of them is sterile, the only major issues are:

1) Where'd Jessica come from? Whose daughter is she?

2) Did Krauss try something crazy when he realized it was probably his fault? Does Natsuhi know about it?
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Old 2010-06-30, 20:39   Link #12327
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This might sound crazy, given what we're told, but what if the reason they didn't have any kids when Kinzo wanted them to was simply because they were not trying to? I could imagine Krauss putting something like that off beleiving he'd inherit everything even if he didn't.
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Old 2010-06-30, 20:49   Link #12328
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This might sound crazy, given what we're told, but what if the reason they didn't have any kids when Kinzo wanted them to was simply because they were not trying to? I could imagine Krauss putting something like that off beleiving he'd inherit everything even if he didn't.
Remembering Natsuhi's memory about their trip to wherever that place in East Asia they went to is (probably Taiwan but who knows), it's too fluffy for them not to be in sexual relations at the time, and, well, pregnancy often happens even if you don't specifically try for it. Naturally, that memory might be offset by Natsuhi's current mental state.

I'd vote it possible, but what would be the consequences for the plot?
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Old 2010-06-30, 20:50   Link #12329
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It's somewhat possible. If Natsuhi was truly miserable in the early years of their marriage, what little we've seen of his good and romantic side would probably not push the issue. So if she didn't really want to have sex with him, he'd probably respect that. It was only by genuinely falling in love that they would even consider it, and who says they were in a hurry after that? Krauss would only be worried if he was somehow concerned that not producing a child first would deny his family the headship, or perhaps if he knew he wasn't getting the headship anyway. Or didn't want it.
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Old 2010-06-30, 20:55   Link #12330
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I vote that as improbable. While Krauss was probably not particularly concerned, Natsuhi believes that giving a heir to her husband is one of her primary duty as her wife.

So what do you know... maybe Krauss faked his orgasms and Natsuhi was to "pure" to know that men ejaculate.....
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Old 2010-06-30, 21:02   Link #12331
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I vote that as improbable. While Krauss was probably not particularly concerned, Natsuhi believes that giving a heir to her husband is one of her primary duty as her wife.
I think it's pretty rare for Krauss to take her concerns seriously.

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So what do you know... maybe Krauss faked his orgasms and Natsuhi was to "pure" to know that men ejaculate.....
.....well......
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Old 2010-06-30, 21:05   Link #12332
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So what do you know... maybe Krauss <Oh my innocent eyes!> and Natsuhi was to "pure" to know that men <The goggles, they do nothing! >.....
Actually, I wouldn't put it past Natsuhi to be so naive. 8) Or at least on some other things and not... that... stuff....
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Old 2010-06-30, 21:21   Link #12333
Judoh
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I wouldn't put it past...
There's that phrase again... Lord Goldsmith is coming for his next victim

We really do need a Natsuhi thread...
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Old 2010-06-30, 23:25   Link #12334
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Available for medical trials in 1957. In US. At least a year after Krauss married Natsuhi. "Available for medical trials" means that production lines for these pills don't exist yet, they are cooked up in laboratories as needed. Before 1957, they simply do not exist -- only specialists have even heard that they might be created.

It's not that it's illegal that's the problem, it's more about having very long connections in very specialised circles, abroad, which a poor, sweet, mentally scarred, crazy, spiteful Eva cannot possibly have yet. Up about until George is born, The Pill falls under "unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices", sorry.
In 1955 there was a tested 100% working contraceptive. So it is not unknown.

Edit: Is there even a reference to Natsuhi and Krauss being married for a decade before Kinzo gave them a child?
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Old 2010-07-01, 02:19   Link #12335
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
In 1955 there was a tested 100% working contraceptive. So it is not unknown.
Not unknown to a lady who thinks "Earl Grey" is a place. Puhhhlease. There are limits to how thinly you can stretch plausibility.

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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Edit: Is there even a reference to Natsuhi and Krauss being married for a decade before Kinzo gave them a child?
Numerous from Ep1 onwards.
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Old 2010-07-01, 10:19   Link #12336
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Let me quote this from Wiki:

"Up to 26% of infertile couples have unexplained infertility."
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Old 2010-07-01, 10:54   Link #12337
Oliver
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Minor observation.
  • Both Genji, Kumasawa and Kanon invariably call Kinzo "the Master".
  • Beatrice's First Letter and Virgilia call him "Kinzo-sama". As far as I can see, nobody else does, Meta-Beatrice uses no honorific at all. Neither does Piece-Beatrice.
  • And while Shannon also uses "the Master", she apparently mentions Kinzo the least of all characters.
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Old 2010-07-01, 12:44   Link #12338
Jan-Poo
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Erika, Nanjo, Kawabata and Okonogi call him "Kinzo-san"

Eva, Natsuhi and Rosa call him "Otosama". Including their younger self.

Kyrie randomly switches between "Otosama" and "Otosan"

Beatrice-2 called him "Kinzo" without onorifics

Rudolf and Krauss call him "Oyaji" and occasionally "Otosan"

Hideyoshi calls him "Otosan"

Jessica, George and Battler call him "Ojisama", with only 3 single instances where Battler calls him "Ojisan".

I can't find anything else but maybe I've missed a few. I couldn't find anything about Maria, except the adults quoting Maria when she said she received the umbrella from Kinzo. They use "ojisama" in that instance, but they might have changed that to fit their own style.
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Old 2010-07-01, 12:51   Link #12339
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I can't find anything else but maybe I've missed a few.
So it looks like my observation is correct.

What do you think, can we use that to strongly connect Virgilia (Kumasawa, probably, because we never had any other candidates for Virgilia) with the Beatrice Letters, (at least the ones that match the style of the first one) rather than any onboard X-trice as we usually do?
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Old 2010-07-01, 13:01   Link #12340
Jan-Poo
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Yes I was merely completing your list, however I wouldn't say that Shannon is different from the other servants. If we include ep5-6 we have enough instances that confirms she uses "Master" like everyone else.

But, of course, Gohda and Kumasawa make no exception.

You are right that in the letters it's always "kinzo-sama" that it is used. However there's absolutely no human piece that use it on the gameboard.

Among the non human Virgilia and Ronove both use it.

Oh... I forgot to mention Beato always uses "kinzo" without any honorific just like Beatrice-2
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