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Old 2010-07-03, 17:39   Link #12501
Jan-Poo
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I guess there are lights in the garden and on the path to the mansion.
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Old 2010-07-03, 17:43   Link #12502
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Sort of random.

Saturday, October 4, 1986 is a new moon, 0.06% illuminated. Full moon is seen on some of the backgrounds, but as far as I remember, none of them appear outside known magic scenes anyway.

What I don't get is, how the heck is anyone able to see anything outside in the rain without a flashlight and without a moon... 25km away from the nearest small town should be about as perfectly dark as it gets.

I wonder if that was accounted for in research...
I hope this doesn't turn into a Moon chan topic or a majoras mask reference or something.

The moon in the background and the "throw a stone to disturb the reflection of the moon in the water speech" are a common symbology in both Higurashi and Umineko. In both the battle scenes too.

I don't really get it either, but it's definitely there for some reason. If somebody can figure out what it's supposed to mean please tell me because I so far have not found anything to explain it and it kind of bugs me to not know.

Spoiler for Himatsubushi hen:


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Old 2010-07-03, 17:50   Link #12503
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Sort of random.

Saturday, October 4, 1986 is a new moon, 0.06% illuminated. Full moon is seen on some of the backgrounds, but as far as I remember, none of them appear outside known magic scenes anyway.

What I don't get is, how the heck is anyone able to see anything outside in the rain without a flashlight and without a moon... 25km away from the nearest small town should be about as perfectly dark as it gets.

I wonder if that was accounted for in research...
I don't think ryukishi cared for the weather on that particular date and time because moon_1a clearly shows the moon over what I presume is supposed to be the chapel, and that moon is full. Same holds with the moon over the city in Maria's "locked out of the house" flashback, actually. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the same moon...
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Old 2010-07-03, 17:54   Link #12504
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I think the Kanon moon reference would mean that Beatrice is completely untouchable? But... to have an influence, she needs to use her "reflection", which can be easily disturbed.

Dunno about the Higurashi one...

And I don't think we need to read too much into the lunar cycles. I mean, there's a limit to how far you have to research something, right .
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Old 2010-07-03, 18:06   Link #12505
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Well the moon's reflection in the water seems to be an illusion. If you attempt to reveal the illusion for what it truly is, you die. So, throwing the stone in the water is probably referring to destroying the illusion. I would say it means, if you are going to die for disturbing the illusion you might as well destroy it.
Just my step by step analysis.
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Old 2010-07-03, 18:44   Link #12506
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Also, a reflection in the water of the moon would have something to do with the mirrors as those bronze mirrors are filled with water in order to be used to reflect and they weren't exactly polished metal...

And, an image of the moon; I wonder if this has anything to do with Kaguya Hime? It's one of the oldest myths from Japan and it should be somewhat common knowledge, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tal..._Bamboo_Cutter
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Old 2010-07-03, 18:50   Link #12507
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
And, an image of the moon; I wonder if this has anything to do with Kaguya Hime? It's one of the oldest myths from Japan and it should be somewhat common knowledge, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tal..._Bamboo_Cutter
As a side note, pretty much anything connected with the moon in Japan eventually mentions rabbits -- even Battler himself says he believed they lived there.

I doubt it means anything specifically useful though.
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Old 2010-07-03, 19:26   Link #12508
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Well, it'd explain where the Siesta Sisters came from, to some extent (in the same way the goats came from Battler suggesting that next there'd be "Goats doing the bon dance"). Probably a little taunt from Beatrice to Battler :P.
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Old 2010-07-03, 19:34   Link #12509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't think ryukishi cared for the weather on that particular date and time because moon_1a clearly shows the moon over what I presume is supposed to be the chapel, and that moon is full. Same holds with the moon over the city in Maria's "locked out of the house" flashback, actually. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the same moon...
He mentioned something on EP6

"譲治は雨雲のはるか上に、きっと浮かんでいるはずの月を見上げて"

George looked up where, surely, the moon was floating high above beyond the cloudy sky.

So Ryuukishi is telling us that the moon cannot be seen due to the clouds, but it's not clear if he's aware that the moon wouldn't be visible anyway.


As for the reflection of the moon, I think it's tied to some tale or common saying proper of the japanese culture. You make that comparison whenever someone tries to do something that would be impossible and foolish to achieve no matter the efforts you make.

The closest thing in western culture is "to empty the sea with a spoon".
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Old 2010-07-03, 19:56   Link #12510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As for the reflection of the moon, I think it's tied to some tale or common saying proper of the japanese culture. You make that comparison whenever someone tries to do something that would be impossible and foolish to achieve no matter the efforts you make.

The closest thing in western culture is "to empty the sea with a spoon".
Is there any linguistic equivalency with something akin to "squeezing blood from a stone?" I've never really heard the expression you're using. I'm thinking that yours is still probably closer to the intent, as the latter expression mostly refers to something that is impossible regardless of the effort put in, with no particular connotations of the foolishness of doing so.

In both cases, you're dealing with something you can't do, but in the former case there is a semblance of success (you can disrupt the image), but the success isn't very useful for anything (which is why you're foolish to bother doing it).

I'm trying to think of a more commonly-used English expression that properly says the same thing.
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:16   Link #12511
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Really? that saying comes from an anecdote about Saint Augustine, and as such it should be popular in all regions that were influenced by Christianity.

You can find it here: http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sta02002.htm

See the bottom.

Ironically I never heard the expression "squeezing blood from a stone" ^^;;

This is even more far in the meaning, because squeezing blood from a stone is plain impossible, while emptying the sea with a spoon is in theory possible... provided you have infinite time and a way to seal the water you take.
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:25   Link #12512
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I'm a Catholic who went to a Catholic high school, Catholic university, and a Catholic law school, and I have never heard that one. I have heard similar idioms, but they're usually spun on the spot and tethered to a specific example. Then again, Americans aren't big on expressions of the futility of things, because we have a nasty habit of trying over and over at that sort of thing anyway.

"Blood from a stone" seems to have come from other languages, and is sometimes spun as "blood from a turnip." As neither of those things bleeds, it's a bit difficult for that to happen. This would be a tier up on "finding a needle in a haystack," since that's possible, just hard.
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:29   Link #12513
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I've heard "blood from a stone" as more a sortof exasperated sigh of futility. So if people can't follow simple instructions or the like.

I suppose "drop in the ocean" is a similar concept...
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:32   Link #12514
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I've heard "blood from a stone" as more a sortof exasperated sigh of futility. So if people can't follow simple instructions or the like.

I suppose "drop in the ocean" is a similar concept...
Now that is a commonly-used English idiom, but "a drop in the ocean" means that something is inconsequential compared to the larger situation.

Like when your car catches fire after running out of gas in the middle of Death Valley. At that point, it's really not a big deal anymore.
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:49   Link #12515
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ROTFL. Not only there was no full moon on that day. It was not even raining on the weekend of Rokkenjima Mystery.
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Old 2010-07-03, 21:03   Link #12516
Verg Avesta
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Random fact:

Inspired by that one interview that was linked a page or two back, did some research on language of flowers. It is mentioned ep4, just as "dreamenddischarger" hits on the full force, that the flower of truth is forget-me-not in the language of flowers. That is actually incorrect. The usual meaning associated with forget-me-not is actually "true love". Funnily enough, the meaning of "truth" is usually given to white chrysanthemum (I don't think we've seen these in the story) and sometimes, blue rose. On the other hand, blue rose also represents "mystery", "attaining the impossible" and is generally tought as a symbol to something "artificial".

Dunno if this is of any importance. I should look around the text if there are any other things that might symbolize something. Like that wormwood = absence thing.
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Old 2010-07-03, 21:14   Link #12517
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
ROTFL. Not only there was no full moon on that day. It was not even raining on the weekend of Rokkenjima Mystery.
what?! No this isn't true at all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Pa...typhoon_season

Typhoon Carmen started exactly in October 4. Ryukishi probably remembers that Typhoon from his personal experience.
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Old 2010-07-03, 21:27   Link #12518
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Typhoon Carmen started exactly in October 4. Ryukishi probably remembers that Typhoon from his personal experience.
Check the track map for it, though. It turned northeast on October 6, according to the description - well before it got to Izu islands. So yes, on these two particular days the weather station at Tokyo International Airport got no rain, because Carmen simply wasn't there yet.

I couldn't coax the weather data for a closer weather station out of Wolfram Alpha, but I think that while it might have been raining on Niijima, heavy rain it wasn't.

Not like it matters a lot, but I think what we have here is the measurable limit of R07's research, telling us a certain known minimum of the artistic license he allows himself.
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Old 2010-07-03, 21:37   Link #12519
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Well, there's also the matter of the house, which is constructed of real photographs from at least two or three different real-life houses. So obviously research is flexible as long as it fits the overall intent. There was a typhoon around that time, and there are houses like the Ushiromiya manor, so that's close enough for jazz.

(Which is another of those English idioms)
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Old 2010-07-03, 21:45   Link #12520
Oliver
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Well, there's also the matter of the house, which is constructed of real photographs from at least two or three different real-life houses. So obviously research is flexible as long as it fits the overall intent. There was a typhoon around that time, and there are houses like the Ushiromiya manor, so that's close enough for jazz.
It certifies that a specific approach is taken to verisimilitude, which is important for analysing it. The story isn't set on a specific date because a typhoon was there at the moment and plot needed it -- the date was selected for some other reason, or randomly, and the typhoon is there at the moment because the plot needs it, and is believable because it's that time of the year when they do show up.
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