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Old 2010-07-05, 08:17   Link #12861
Oliver
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Tangent, and probably has been discussed before, but I would like to pose a question to your collective memory.

Has Battler ever seen George's ring on Shannon's finger?

In Ep1, George himself doesn't see it, because Shannon runs off to think. Then she is dead in the first twilight, and there's only Hideyoshi to tell him whether she is wearing a ring and which finger it is on, and it's perfectly reasonable for Hideyoshi to lie to console his son, especially if he knew about the ring beforehand -- but Battler himself did not see it.

In Ep2, Shannon wears the ring immediately, but curiously, Battler doesn't seem to notice it despite having numerous occasions to see Shannon up close. It would be odd if the ring passed without comment whatsoever, but it somehow escapes my memory if any such comment happened.
Well, did it happen?

In Ep3, George apparently gives her the ring, but it is not mentioned all the way until Shannon gets resurrected. Both George and Shannon are immediately dead afterwards and it is never clear if Battler examines her body, let alone sees the ring.

In Ep4, George actually complains to Gaap about never getting a chance to give Shannon the ring, so she isn't expected to have it anyway.

So... Did Battler ever see it with his own eyes, or didn't he? Did he ever get told about the ring specifically by a non-meta character?
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:23   Link #12862
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I fear Battler cannot confirm that George wanted to give Shannon a ring in the first place.

The closest thing that he witnessed about that is Hideyoshi telling George that Shannon has a ring in her hand.
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:30   Link #12863
DgBarca
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This + Shannon and George never killed on the 2nd twillight sounds like Shannon and George love story is fake...
Just George wanting Eva to go GNGNGNGNNGNN
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:35   Link #12864
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I fear Battler cannot confirm that George wanted to give Shannon a ring in the first place.

The closest thing that he witnessed about that is Hideyoshi telling George that Shannon has a ring in her hand.
I'm not sure about 'wanted', because Jessica, on several occasions, introduces Battler to George+Shannon shipping, and she might have mentioned it being serious enough for an engagement ring, but can't remember clearly whether this happens or not.

What puzzled me is George's speech in Ep2, where he gives Shannon the ring and she accepts. He wants her to wait 'a short three years'. He also apparently wants to make it public, since he describes the ring as a sales contract, "this woman is mine, don't touch her"

Now, it looks nice and sweet when taken at face value, but how exactly does he imagine that will work out? How does he expect Shannon to be treated in her workplace in the future, as a maid or as a bride-to-be to an important relative? Does he expect her to quit her job? She has more than enough money saved up to last her three years, but no mention is made of that. What would everyone's reaction be to seeing the ring and then learning of it's true significance? That's... an explosive status change.

Sure, he might shut Eva up now, but how does he expect to look her in the face come Tuesday, when he still lives with his parents, if he isn't announcing the marriage as a fact?...
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:46   Link #12865
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Hmmm good point, that 3-years delay isn't mentioned at all in EP6, rather it totally looks as if Shannon is going to leave the island pretty soon and as a consequence Kanon would leave as well. Jessica wouldn't be that sad if Kanon was going to stay for at least 3 years still.

A possible interpretation is that Shannon was planning to leave the island even before getting married. As you said she has enough money to manage that even if she didn't find a job at all in the mainland.
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:53   Link #12866
DgBarca
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Wait...what...
I stop talking on EP7...but... on EP2
From the wiki :
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included

"the corpse of" is not in red...maybe Jessica faked her death ?

Also, if she didn't fake her death, I would say that The culprit stole Jessica's precious key. Then when everybody was seeking Kanon, the culprit put the key on a desk. This would explain why the key is in a such "suspicious place". It was clearly shown to make it looks like this key was here from the beginning.
But a servant killed Jessica, because only Gohda, Shannon, Genji, Jessica and Kanon were is the mansion, with everyone else in the chapel. Or even Jessica faked her death.

EDIT : Nevermind : When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

But it doesn't change my theory about Jessica's key.

Spoiler for OMFG EP2:
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:02   Link #12867
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Also, if she didn't fake her death, I would say that The culprit stole Jessica's precious key. Then when everybody was seeking Kanon, the culprit put the key on a desk. This would explain why the key is in a such "suspicious place". It was clearly shown to make it looks like this key was here from the beginning.
Actually, there's also a possibility for Jessica to have died after she has been discovered so that when she is discovered and thought to be a corpse, she is alive, but dies once everyone is already inside. Then she can simply have locked the door from inside before collapsing on the floor.

There's also a clever way for Rosa to pretend the key found as Jessica's key is actually Jessica's key when it isn't, as long as Rosa had the real Jessica's key or Kanon's master key beforehand. Rosa confirms it is Jessica's key by leaving the room, locking, unlocking, entering. There is no way to tell which key did she actually insert as she cannot be seen through the door.

Shannon's words during this scene are also odd: Shannon says Jessica wasn't in the habit of locking her room and would only do that when leaving for school so that Krauss doesn't look inside. Why Krauss but not Natsuhi? Why can't Krauss do that while she's out of the room for some other reason? And the scene of Jessica and Kanon's death clearly states that the room was locked.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-07-05 at 09:05. Reason: whoops.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:05   Link #12868
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, there's also a possibility for Jessica to have died after she has been discovered so that when she is discovered and thought to be a corpse, she is alive, but dies once everyone is already inside. Then she can simply have locked the door from inside before collapsing on the floor.

There's also a clever way for Rosa to pretend the key found as Jessica's key is not actually Jessica's key, as long as Rosa had the real Jessica's key or Kanon's master key beforehand. Rosa confirms it is Jessica's key by leaving the room, locking, unlocking, entering. There is no way to tell which key did she actually insert as she cannot be seen through the door.

Shannon's words during this scene are also odd: Shannon says Jessica wasn't in the habit of locking her room and would only do that when leaving for school so that Krauss doesn't look inside. Why Krauss but not Natsuhi? Why can't Krauss do that while she's out of the room for some other reason? And the scene of Jessica and Kanon's death clearly states that the room was locked.
Well, this theory would be destroyed by Van Dine...and with the screenshot I posted above....
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:12   Link #12869
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A possible interpretation is that Shannon was planning to leave the island even before getting married. As you said she has enough money to manage that even if she didn't find a job at all in the mainland.
That's a possible interpretation, and would work perfectly fine if there was any evidence of Battler seeing the ring after Shannon is supposed to have it.

As long as we don't have that evidence the whole scene seems rather dubious. With the amount of attention devoted to George+Shannon shipping, it would not only be extremely cruel to the shippers to reveal the whole story as a lie, but also exceedingly wasteful -- if you, as an author, just want to sink ships, you're better off getting the fans to build them by themselves through subtle hints, saves you time and effort.

So assuming the whole George+Shannon is not a total lie, what's really going on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Well, this theory would be destroyed by Van Dine...and with the screenshot I posted above....
If Van Dine rules were in red, maybe, but so far, they have been more of a checklist of things to pull.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:14   Link #12870
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DgBarca you forgot that he Dine rules are mentioned in a EP5 tips.

It's funny how you are over excited for that mention which is by far less relevant for the "van dine" cause ^^;
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:18   Link #12871
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If Van Dine rules were in red, maybe, but so far, they have been more of a checklist of things to pull.
Even if they are not true, I don't like the "X got killed after everyone (Battler must be included here) entered the room".
If Battler was not with the group in EP3, it could be possible...but not in Jessica's case. And even, Kanon was killed in this room. And I don't think that the killer would have left Jessica alone with a huge chance to escape while he was carrying the corpse...or he thrown it out the window.

Also, if we want to see a bit of truth in the scene where Jessica and Kanon dies (I always said that the "fake" scene had the "inderect" truth, and it match the lyrics of EP7's OP), then he got cut in two part...
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:24   Link #12872
Oliver
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Abstract, but I think it sounds like a candidate for that "cold hard truth" we've been expectng.

What if Umineko is actually a mystery rendered as romance?

That is, "mystery" is what actually happened, for purely pragmatic, logical reasons. Romance was not involved in motivations. It was added later together with all the trappings and attributes, by Meta-Beatrice who is telling the story, because she's the one who sees love everywhere, even when it isn't actually present, and prefers to explain people's behaviour through love.

Kind of like "The Three Musketeers" insinuates that the siege of La Rochelle was a result of a romantic intrigue, when it probably had other logical and pragmatic reasons to happen.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:30   Link #12873
Jan-Poo
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Okay in case someone missed it:



There is no doubt that Wright exists in this fictional universe, and there is no doubt that s/he uses 20 rules.

What we can debate is if this wright will actually appear in the story, if Beatrice's games are subjected to these rules, but most importantly if the rules are exactly as the original van dine rules.

Considering the Knox rules aren't, I highly doubt that should the van dine rules be mentioned in this story they would be left untouched.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:30   Link #12874
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Even if they are not true, I don't like the "X got killed after everyone (Battler must be included here) entered the room".
No, that's not what I meant. Not "got killed". Died. It often takes a while, particularly when stabbed in a not immediately deadly spot.

Consider this scenario:
  • Jessica and Kanon are in the room.
  • Killer enters and accosts both of them.
  • Jessica is mortally wounded, Kanon is dead.
  • Killer decides to hide the bodies to confuse things, so he grabs Kanon's body and leaves.
  • Jessica, still alive, barely stands up, and locks the door, thinking the killer will notice she isn't dead yet and finish the job.
  • Jessica crawls towards the phone to call for help, because she knows there's other people with master keys who will be able to open it and might save her. Eventually she loses consciousness before she can do it.
  • The search party enters. Jessica is still alive, but finally expires right as Beatrice is saying her red, which creates an ambiguity and makes her go 'oops'.

That better?
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:35   Link #12875
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Jessica, still alive, barely stands up, and locks the door, thinking the killer will notice she isn't dead yet and finish the job.
Jessica crawls towards the phone to call for help, because she knows there's other people with master keys who will be able to open it and might save her. Eventually she loses consciousness before she can do it.
was it ever mentioned there are trails of blood from Jessica's location to the door?
If not I claim this is an infringement of the 8th rule
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:35   Link #12876
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I fear Battler cannot confirm that George wanted to give Shannon a ring in the first place.

The closest thing that he witnessed about that is Hideyoshi telling George that Shannon has a ring in her hand.
Take this with a grain of salt since it's DEEN, but in the anime, the ring only appeared during George-Shannon romance scenes and fantasy scenes where it was relevant. Otherwise, her hand was shown with no ring on it.

I'd be inclined to think the ring exists because Rudolf saw it in the airport bathroom, but there's really no evidence that Shannon accepted it.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:40   Link #12877
Oliver
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was it ever mentioned there are trails of blood from Jessica's location to the door?
If not I claim this is an infringement of the 8th rule
"There was a large pool of blood on the floor", yes, but, a) that may be Kanon's blood, and b) Jessica's wound is a stab wound, not a cut wound. These do not necessarily bleed outside, particularly if the weapon is still in the wound.
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:40   Link #12878
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Take this with a grain of salt since it's DEEN, but in the anime, the ring only appeared during George-Shannon romance scenes and fantasy scenes where it was relevant. Otherwise, her hand was shown with no ring on it.

I'd be inclined to think the ring exists because Rudolf saw it in the airport bathroom, but there's really no evidence that Shannon accepted it.
Well... in this case I fear we can't rely too much on DEEN, since they made golden eagle disappear, switched hair colors of the stakes and forgot that Leviathan exists filling the hole with a Lucifer doppelganger.

What about the manga?
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:44   Link #12879
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well... in this case I fear we can't rely too much on DEEN, since they made golden eagle disappear, switched hair colors of the stakes and forgot that Leviathan exists filling the hole with a Lucifer doppelganger.

What about the manga?
I don't have it, but a good place to check would be EP2 when Genji's group reports Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths. That's where I noticed it in the anime. Has the EP2 manga gotten that far?
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Old 2010-07-05, 09:47   Link #12880
Oliver
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'd be inclined to think the ring exists because Rudolf saw it in the airport bathroom, but there's really no evidence that Shannon accepted it.
If Hideyoshi did not think George was serious about Shannon, lying about seeing the ring on her hand would be an improvisation that's hard to justify, so the desire to give a ring is as good as confirmed, and probably the existence of the ring itself too.

But if Shannon never actually accepted it, lots of interesting scenes become rather dubious.

...but what if George actually wanted to give the ring to someone else and Hideyoshi just didn't know whom and assumed Shannon?... ...nah, too far-fetched.
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