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Old 2010-07-05, 09:59   Link #12881
Almazluverdis3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
No, that's not what I meant. Not "got killed". Died. It often takes a while, particularly when stabbed in a not immediately deadly spot.

Consider this scenario:
  • Jessica and Kanon are in the room.
  • Killer enters and accosts both of them.
  • Jessica is mortally wounded, Kanon is dead.
  • Killer decides to hide the bodies to confuse things, so he grabs Kanon's body and leaves.
  • Jessica, still alive, barely stands up, and locks the door, thinking the killer will notice she isn't dead yet and finish the job.
  • Jessica crawls towards the phone to call for help, because she knows there's other people with master keys who will be able to open it and might save her. Eventually she loses consciousness before she can do it.
  • The search party enters. Jessica is still alive, but finally expires right as Beatrice is saying her red, which creates an ambiguity and makes her go 'oops'.

That better?
Umm, I thought about that earlier. I'm anti-fantasy too, mind you. If Jessica did all that, then she would have died of blood-loss. Of course, you never considered where Jessica was stabbed. It's pretty known that the chest is a lethal spot (where Kanon was stabbed) but the back is also a lethal spot. Jessica's heartbeat would increase, making her bleed more and more. She's dead before she stands up. Besides, after reviewing episode II-III (Week Square, though it's Weak Square), the stake was right in the gob-smack middle , which means her spinal chord would have been damaged. In addition to the damage comes (again) blood-loss. A person with these conditions combined won't really be able to think coherently.

1) Nanjo makes sure she was dead.

2) The meta layer, when brought up, makes every source of life freeze except the people within that layer. (In this case, Battler and Beatrice-sama.)

3) I'm a total bitch.

I'm sorry if I totally crushed that theory, I didn't mean to argue. Just tweaking it.
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Old 2010-07-05, 10:13   Link #12882
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Besides, after reviewing episode II-III (Week Square, though it's Weak Square), the stake was right in the gob-smack middle , which means her spinal chord would have been damaged.
Sure, use the anime as a reliable source and you'll have to explain why Shannon still has tears on her half-face in Ep1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
1) Nanjo makes sure she was dead.
You trust Nanjo? Seriously?...

Quote:
"...This is, .........horrible. ...She has passed away. ......This, probably, reached her lungs... ......Not much time has passed since she died."
If you trust Nanjo's medical opinion, something that "probably reached" lungs would not necessarily kill at all. If you trust the anime depiction, something that actually got through the spine would actually pass between the lungs, and the lungs would be the last of her problems anyway, so why mention them at all.

Mind you, I'm not convinced that what I described is what really happened, because there are other interesting things that are odd with the scene, but these counterarguments are not good enough. This possible scenario just explains Beatrice's "oops, Jessica is also included" as that's a way how Jessica could be a corpse and a non-corpse in a span of time short enough create ambiguity.
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Old 2010-07-05, 10:20   Link #12883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Sure, use the anime as a reliable source and you'll have to explain why Shannon still has tears on her half-face in Ep1.



You trust Nanjo? Seriously?...



If you trust Nanjo's medical opinion, something that "probably reached" lungs would not necessarily kill at all. If you trust the anime depiction, something that actually got through the spine would actually pass between the lungs, and the lungs would be the last of her problems anyway, so why mention them at all.

Mind you, I'm not convinced that what I described is what really happened, because there are other interesting things that are odd with the scene, but these counterarguments are not good enough. This possible scenario just explains Beatrice's "oops, Jessica is also included" as that's a way how Jessica could be a corpse and a non-corpse in a span of time short enough create ambiguity.
I'm not trusting the anime, not at all. I'm just looking at the corpse. In the character log, only a pattern of blood shows on Jessica's back. So I'm looking at something I can see.

Why shouldn't I trust Nanjo? But you are right. I even have The Nanjo/Kanon Culprit Theory against him. You beat me outright. XD
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Old 2010-07-05, 10:35   Link #12884
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Why shouldn't I trust Nanjo? But you are right. I even have The Nanjo/Kanon Culprit Theory against him. You beat me outright. XD
You shouldn't trust Nanjo because at no time he utters anything that reaches a layman's knowledge of medical jargon, let alone exceeds it, but this has been discussed before.

To be very precise though, I do think that this particular red should be interpreted this way: The red is uttered after a letter from Beatrice is read out. There is no longer any question that Jessica is dead to those present in the room, her clothes have been searched, and if she is not dead, only Nanjo knows about this for sure. She pretty definitely is dead, unless there's a fake stake floating around. "Now" therefore refers to a moment after everyone has been in the room for some ten minutes or so.

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, (i.e. when the object we now know as 'Jessica's corpse' was first seen, and which now is unambiguously Jessica's corpse) only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room. Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included (because at the time of discovery, what is now known as Jessica's corpse was a living or dying Jessica, so if the red was not amended in this way, it would become invalid.)

While interpretations of this red are possible which do not require Jessica to actually be dead, they make every red that uses the word 'corpse' ambiguous, which is something we must avoid. So I agree that Jessica is dead at the moment this red is uttered -- but conclude that at the exact moment when the corpse was discovered and all the people mentioned in red finished entering the room, she was not dead yet. Whether she was dying already by the time she was discovered or subtly killed afterwards is an open question, but 'dying already' has to be far more likely.
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Old 2010-07-05, 10:51   Link #12885
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Oh I get it. You are saying that Jessica was already dead? I misunderstood that.

I'll just proceed to explaining what my theory is.

Spoiler for Ep1, Nanjo/Kanon Theory:


Doctors are EVIL.
Nanjo kills everyone, kills himself last, then Natsuhi kills herself.
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:14   Link #12886
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Oh I get it. You are saying that Jessica was already dead? I misunderstood that.
I think that this red implies Jessica died after everyone entered the room, but before they finished reading the letter, while they were poking around the corners for Kanon -- whenever it was that she started dying. Whether this happened before or after Nanjo examined her remains a very interesting open question, there's relatively few quick lethal actions you can actually perform in full view of a large audience without getting caught.

I find an utterly incompetent Nanjo more believable than Nanjo who knows his patient is still alive, but is going to die any moment, and doing nothing, though. Notice that he is never described actually examining Jessica in detail -- it is not said if he checks her pulse, he never pulls out a mirror to check for breathing, he never tests for a pupil reflex... It is, however, quite possible that he didn't expect Jessica to actually be dead, and thought that fake murders are supposed to continue, and it's his job to confirm Jessica dead without further ado. Jessica instead died because she was actually hurt and nobody saved her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Nanjo is clearly able to fiddle around with Kanon while he was injured, right?
  • Nanjo is (or not) helping Kanon.
  • When Jessica isn't looking, he (insert some lethal but quick action here)(s) Kanon.
  • He keeps doing this, Kanon not even noticing his sneakiness.
  • Nanjo declares him dead due to bloodloss.

Doctors are EVIL.
Nanjo kills everyone, kills himself last, then Natsuhi kills herself.
There's one odd thing about Kanon's death in Ep1, which supports this:

Quote:
Doctor Nanjo's shirt had been sprayed by a violent spurt of blood, so it was easy to imagine the devotion with which he had tried to save Kanon's life...up until the last second.
Now, if Kanon lost much blood while in the boiler room, which is said to have happened (pool of blood again) there's no way it would spray across Nanjo's shirt in any kind of violent manner, unless Nanjo did something stupid to cause it. With a real open heart wound, Kanon would bleed to death in seconds even before he was carried out of the boiler room, this is way too theatrical.

And then there's one red from much later that makes it very unlikely Kanon died at all:

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

While that bit about the alibis is somewhat nonsensical, since it does not actually require for the alibis to be valid (someone can lie, and it's still an alibi, technically), the continuation remains in force -- no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon.

The only logical way out of this is that Kanon did not die at all, because he also did not die in an accident and did not commit suicide...
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:15   Link #12887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Oh I get it. You are saying that Jessica was already dead? I misunderstood that.

I'll just proceed to explaining what my theory is.

Spoiler for Ep1, Nanjo/Kanon Theory:


Doctors are EVIL.
Nanjo kills everyone, kills himself last, then Natsuhi kills herself.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
=3
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:21   Link #12888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I think it's high time for another colour. Pink has always been a fan favourite...
Implying that green text doesn't already exist.
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:23   Link #12889
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
Implying that green text doesn't already exist.
It does, Witch Hunt uses it for translator's notes! :P
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:35   Link #12890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
=3
Oh, I missed that. And it was such a perfect theory too! Anyway, I'm a little retarded.

EDIT: It's true. It's called Grimoire text
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:39   Link #12891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
=3
If you're an accomplice of a murderer, does that still make you a murderer though >_>? You still helped in the process of the murder, but you did not do the lethal blow!
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:40   Link #12892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Doctors are EVIL.
Nanjo kills everyone, kills himself last, then Natsuhi kills herself.

But if taken seriously, in addition to Nanjo is not a murderer, Natsuhi couldn't have killed herself, as Natsuhi was killed by another person!

I've been wondering about the new Jessica-look alike... Is s/he the person X (from Kuwadorian)? If Shkanon is true, there is room for one more... The man from 19 years ago?
But as the rules of Knox say, the culprit cannot be someone not introduced early in the game. But could s/he be the visitor people saw in EP2? S/he looks like Beatrice a little as well... But is s/he a man or a woman anyway? S/he could probably be regarded as either on first meeting.

If it's a man after all, why does she look like Jessica? I don't know how serious I can be with this but here goes:
The new blonde is Jessica. Jessica is actually male!
She's been singing Tsurupettan, and Battler said to her early in EP1 that "even you managed to get a chest"! According to people a few pages back, Jessica has buttons on the man-side (like the new blonde) and Jessica speaks like a guy, maybet it's just some kind of old habit, but that raises the question why and when did she started acting as a girl? The new character is Jessica's true self. Also as a male she'd be a better candidate for the new head.

We've been trolled this far to deny Kanon's existence, believing in Shannon crossdressing and all that, so we've failed to see the truth. It's actually Kanon's girlfriend who's been fooling everyone since the beginning. What made her do that, Battler's sin maybe?

What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:45   Link #12893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
If you're an accomplice of a murderer, does that still make you a murderer though >_>? You still helped in the process of the murder, but you did not do the lethal blow!
If you're not counted as a murderer then my theory for Episode 01 would be:
  • Kanon is the main culprit, Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji are accomplices.
  • The chain on Eva & Hideyoshi's room was broken before the murder occurred.
  • Kanon faked his death with Nanjo's help.
  • Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji were killed by Kanon because they wanted to kill Maria, but he didn't want them to kill a child. Maybe he just overreacted ;P
  • He placed the letter in the parlor and took it after killing Natsuhi.

Last edited by DanielMors; 2010-07-05 at 12:01.
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:47   Link #12894
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
EDIT: It's true. It's called Grimoire text
Implying that I was talking about that .

Meh, never mind, I think I spent too much time looking at the screenshot generator page on Know Your Meme .
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:48   Link #12895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post


We've been trolled this far to deny Kanon's existence, believing in Shannon crossdressing and all that, so we've failed to see the truth. It's actually Kanon's girlfriend who's been fooling everyone since the beginning. What made her do that, Battler's sin maybe?

What do you think, everyone?
Well, basing off what I know in EP6 (couldn't read it/waiting translations/summaries ended, sadly)... Shkanon would explain a lot of things.

However, in the EP7 opening, it seems that the furnitures, servants, and adults are being matched with their Magical - Mirror (or w/e) or teammates ! (Jessca and Ronove, Leviathan with Kyrie, etc.).

I think this also means the furnitures will be 'executed' as well.

Still thinking about the purpose of the new characters as well. New pieces, related to Ushiromiya, .... any Chess-Rules that include this metaphorically?
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:51   Link #12896
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
The new blonde is Jessica. Jessica is actually male!

*snip*

What do you think, everyone?
Considering that Battler is actually surprised that even Jessica managed to grow a chest, which implies that she might not have had one at all six years ago, it's not like hints to support this cannot be found, though I wonder if there's any other hints beside her brass knuckles, and the big puzzle becomes... why exactly would Natsuhi and Krauss conceal Jessica's gender, because there's no way in hell they don't know, and a male heir is actually an advantage in the Ushiromiya ranking.

That would still make Umineko the longest coming-out-of-the-closet story ever written, which would also nicely explain why the Ushiromiya never look into closets if they can help it. It's not just skeletons hiding in there...
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:53   Link #12897
Oliver
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Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
Implying that I was talking about that .

Meh, never mind, I think I spent too much time looking at the screenshot generator page on Know Your Meme .
Implying that the person you're talking to isn't aware of the meme

I'll have you know that it's because I know that I said "pink".
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:55   Link #12898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post

But if taken seriously, in addition to Nanjo is not a murderer, Natsuhi couldn't have killed herself, as Natsuhi was killed by another person!

I've been wondering about the new Jessica-look alike... Is s/he the person X (from Kuwadorian)? If Shkanon is true, there is room for one more... The man from 19 years ago?
But as the rules of Knox say, the culprit cannot be someone not introduced early in the game. But could s/he be the visitor people saw in EP2? S/he looks like Beatrice a little as well... But is s/he a man or a woman anyway? S/he could probably be regarded as either on first meeting.

If it's a man after all, why does she look like Jessica? I don't know how serious I can be with this but here goes:
The new blonde is Jessica. Jessica is actually male!
She's been singing Tsurupettan, and Battler said to her early in EP1 that "even you managed to get a chest"! According to people a few pages back, Jessica has buttons on the man-side (like the new blonde) and Jessica speaks like a guy, maybet it's just some kind of old habit, but that raises the question why and when did she started acting as a girl? The new character is Jessica's true self. Also as a male she'd be a better candidate for the new head.

We've been trolled this far to deny Kanon's existence, believing in Shannon crossdressing and all that, so we've failed to see the truth. It's actually Kanon's girlfriend who's been fooling everyone since the beginning. What made her do that, Battler's sin maybe?

What do you think, everyone?
I'll have to turn the chessboard on that. No more than 18 people (17,plus Erika) on this island.

In EP1-EP4,no more than 17 people on this island.
Has anyone noticed there are only 4 survivors in the end?

In EP1, The extra death was Natsuhi.

In EP2, Kinzo, since he was dead from the very beginning.

EP3, on the other hand, has one surviver.

In EP4, Rosa, in defense of Goldsmith.

In Ep5 ?????

In EP6 ?????

I can't disregard that Nat did not kill herself. I forgot about Natsuhi being killed by other people.
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:58   Link #12899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
why exactly would Natsuhi and Krauss conceal Jessica's gender, because there's no way in hell they don't know, and a male heir is actually an advantage in the Ushiromiya ranking.

That would still make Umineko the longest coming-out-of-the-closet story ever written, which would also nicely explain why the Ushiromiya never look into closets if they can help it. It's not just skeletons hiding in there...
I just remembered the thing about Jessica locking her door when leaving for school, so Krauss doesn't go there... Maybe there is something that reveals Jessica's true identity? So maybe only Natsuhi knows...

It really would be a most queer story... As Jessica would be gay for an imaginary friend.
Unless their whole love story was fake as well.
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Old 2010-07-05, 11:59   Link #12900
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Ahh, yes.

I still forgot the fact that Battler's 'sin' has influenced the murders, or at least 'people die because of his sin'.
Wait, does this go into regards of his sin making EVERYONE die on Rokkenjima?

Also, the new Jessica-look-a-like seems to have clothes very similar to Kanon's sprite. Hint hint ?
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