AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-07, 18:48   Link #13361
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about her killing Battler's family over and over again (that never happened to begin with) I'm talking about her actions in the Meta-World.

Even if she's 'acting' for 'Battler's sake'... that doesn't make murdering him repeatedly alright, does it?
Well the stakes did that mostly... Stealing his croissant wasn't nice either...

The confetti thing at the beginning of EP4 is probably more like her real self.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:52   Link #13362
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So I've been wondering... exactly what did Beatrice do to earn our sympathy and forget about all the horrible things she did back in the early games? Her actions can't be entirely explained by 'acting' or 'they're just pieces', since she also tortures Battler for an unspecified period of time in the Meta-World between Ep2 and 3, and seems to derive great enjoyment from it... and then there's what she does for Rosa...

What did she do in the last three games that's suddenly made everything she'd done 'okay'? Why does learning about her tragic past suddenly make her a good person who doesn't enjoy doling out eternal torture?
She grew up a bit.

Notice how the behaviour of early, trolling Beatrice, resembles the behaviour of a child tearing wings off flying insects and watching them suffer, torturing small animals, tying empty cans to a cat's tail... Not so much out of malice as because of being incapable of telling right from wrong, behaviour of a solitary creature not formed by a society of any kind. All those atrocities do not look like those of someone who lost their humanity, but rather, like those of someone who doesn't have it yet. It takes Virgilia to humble Beatrice at all, Battler is certainly not capable of it himself.

Then comes something like a mental equivalent of puberty, I imagine, where she is suddenly forced to recognise that other people (Battler) hold certain views, and she can't just go into their brain and flip the switch if she wants to play with them.

The major reason for us to treat her differently is the realisation that it is close to impossible for whoever Beatrice is to have actually committed any murders, which actually kind of divorces Meta-Beatrice from any possible onboard person who is her. And that renders Meta-Beatrice completely harmless, whatever she may imagine in her solipsist vision of the world.

Also remember that Ep1-2 are supposed to have been written by a different author. Maybe it's Featherinne who hates Bern and likes Beato?...
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:00   Link #13363
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
And yet, Beatrice has existed for a thousand years (in Meta-time). She seems to have been aware of other witches for quite a while now, and there's that whole background to the Meta-World we keep hearing about, with Pendragon, the Witches' Senate, Heaven...

The Beatrice who was created to love Battler may be recent, yes, but Meta-Beatrice is (probably) an aggregate of all the 'real' Beatrices. I don't think you can say that she was "just being a child", especially since Bern and Lambda imply that all immortals are like this. Hell, they even reference several books with similar themes.

(Also, not all children act that way, and those that do generally end up as what we like to call "problem children".)

Of course, what REALLY makes no sense is Virgilia's silly, trollish behaviour, which is forgotten entirely after Ep4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well the stakes did that mostly.
She ordered the stakes to do it. On a reread, it's obvious that it was just to try and force him to figure out her mystery, but, still, murdering him?

Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:10   Link #13364
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And yet, Beatrice has existed for a thousand years (in Meta-time). She seems to have been aware of other witches for quite a while now, and there's that whole background to the Meta-World we keep hearing about, with Pendragon, the Witches' Senate, Heaven...

The Beatrice who was created to love Battler may be recent, yes, but Meta-Beatrice is (probably) an aggregate of all the 'real' Beatrices. I don't think you can say that she was "just being a child", especially since Bern and Lambda imply that all immortals are like this. Hell, they even reference several books with similar themes.

(Also, not all children act that way, and those that do generally end up as what we like to call "problem children".)

Of course, what REALLY makes no sense is Virgilia's silly, trollish behaviour, which is forgotten entirely after Ep4.



She ordered the stakes to do it. On a reread, it's obvious that it was just to try and force him to figure out her mystery, but, still, murdering him?

Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening?
Well, he obviously understands why she did it and who she actually is. We don't know either of those or his sin. So, we do not know the trick known as 'Beatrice's heart' and we cannot understand her.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:12   Link #13365
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening?
Well, I guess Battler did!
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:14   Link #13366
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Of course, what REALLY makes no sense is Virgilia's silly, trollish behaviour, which is forgotten entirely after Ep4.
It's possible that Virgilia was asked to act that way by Beatrice, since she never really got riled up by Gaap ever again after EP 4.

As for Beatrice's actions: she decided to play the role of an evil witch in order to make Battler not believe in the fantasy and aspire to find the truth. When Bern decided to corrupt that to her own desire to kill Beatrice, she misled Ange into getting Battler to think that the best way to fight against Beatrice is to just throw whatever he could think of and see what hits and misses. It turned into a battle to deny witches rather than trying to find the truth. Beatrice couldn't give up her role though because then Battler wouldn't be motivated to find the answer. This is obvious enough from EP 3, where he nearly signed his death warrant if Beatrice didn't go back to playing the evil witch.

When it comes to Bern and Lambda?

Spoiler for EP 6:
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:14   Link #13367
Auria
...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catbox
^ ninja'd :0

Well, in a theory of mine I stated that Beatrice might have been that fierce to provoke Battler to find the answers and create a hate against witches so that he won't stop fighting. But Bern could be doing the same now with her uuuugh I'm soooo evil mode.. thing is, you can twist the thing as much as you want and still get both answers, kind of. Or maybe it's none of them.

Last edited by Auria; 2010-07-07 at 19:33.
Auria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:15   Link #13368
delita-umw-
Wild Speculator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
Well, if all immortals act like that, maybe that's why she naively thinks those actions are acceptable ie all the immortals are like crazy immoral brats? A thousand years of getting away with trolling her toys and then having to finally really interact with a normal-ish person could finally force her to realize she's doing things wrong?
delita-umw- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:18   Link #13369
Auria
...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catbox
Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Well, if all immortals act like that, maybe that's why she naively thinks those actions are acceptable ie all the immortals are like crazy immoral brats? A thousand years of getting away with trolling her toys and then having to finally really interact with a normal-ish person could finally force her to realize she's doing things wrong?
Yep, that's the 'normal' development if neither of the two sides was 'troll-mode'.
Auria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:19   Link #13370
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening?
Beatrice: "What me? A murderer? I fixed him didn't I...?"

That's probably the logic she has. It's not fun to break a toy if you can't fix it, but it doesn't matter if you break something over and over if it's just going to be fixed when your done.

Also Lambda called her a temporary witch in that tea party you were talking about so she's definitely not as old as she says. 1000 years is probably a metaphor for how long she's been waiting.

I think the whole cruelty thing is a bluff. It's a cover she puts up to make herself look bigger than she really is. Like a moth that scares predators away by disguising itself to look like an owl.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:19   Link #13371
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The elephant in the room, of course, is that this could just be authorial development over the course of writing things and discarding some ideas while working more intensively on others.

There's no way he has every aspect of the series planned from the start.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:30   Link #13372
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
It's possible that Virgilia was asked to act that way by Beatrice, since she never really got riled up by Gaap ever again after EP 4.
Probably. But then, as was pointed about above, it's easy to justify any kind of contradictory behaviour just by saying "they were acting".

It's just like saying "a witch did it". It doesn't really explain anything by itself, you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
As for Beatrice's actions: she decided to play the role of an evil witch in order to make Battler not believe in the fantasy and aspire to find the truth.
And I'd be perfectly fine with this interpretation if the third-person narration didn't contradict it. I'm well aware that it can be unreliable, but that should only apply to board scenes, not meta ones...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
*snip*
Well, that perfectly justifies their actions, but, then, why are we told early on that all witches are cruel, heartless, eternally bored beings?

I'm not comfortable with a narrative that keeps retconning itself, which I suppose is why I am comfortable with pretending the Meta-World doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The elephant in the room, of course, is that this could just be authorial development over the course of writing things and discarding some ideas while working more intensively on others.
In all, I'm more inclined to believe that it's this. Maybe Ryukishi fell in love with Beato's character while writing and decided to make her into a good person, changing the story to reflect that fact.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:39   Link #13373
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And yet, Beatrice has existed for a thousand years (in Meta-time). She seems to have been aware of other witches for quite a while now, and there's that whole background to the Meta-World we keep hearing about, with Pendragon, the Witches' Senate, Heaven...
Um... What is Meta-time? Did any of those things actually exist in the meta-context before they were mentioned, even?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
(Also, not all children act that way, and those that do generally end up as what we like to call "problem children".)
Sure, that's precisely what I meant - but remember, 'problem children' don't just grow on trees, something usually makes them that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening?
Reevaluate it, possibly. On the other hand... How's that interpretation:

Meta-Beatrice is an aggregate of all the entities bearing or using the name 'Beatrice' for their own ends, and exists entirely inside Battler's mind. As he slowly becomes aware of new facts and interpretations of situations previously observed (ostensibly through Meta-Beatrice, but actually, through other means -- imagine that Meta-Battler is actually reading stories with himself, or rather, what the author thinks of him, as the hero. With footnotes that give rise to the red text. He's imagining the metaworld activities to give shape to his thoughts as it makes it easier to convey them to us, in turn.) and forgets others, his interpretation of the entire Beatrice conglomerate changes, and so does Meta-Beatrice as an expression of that interpretation.

We may think whatever we like, but Battler did forget all that ever happened, or rather, he doesn't think it was quite so important anymore.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:45   Link #13374
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And yet, Beatrice has existed for a thousand years (in Meta-time). She seems to have been aware of other witches for quite a while now, and there's that whole background to the Meta-World we keep hearing about, with Pendragon, the Witches' Senate, Heaven...
Sorry if this has already been answered, but..

I remember in EP6 or EP5, someone saying how "even 6 years could feel like 1000 years if you're waiting" ... for someone you love, was it? Or waiting for a promise?

Worth going back into the game, but I remember reading something like this leading me to realize how Beatrice could be created 6 years ago and yet insist she was 1000 years old. Because I was suspicious of her actually being 1000 years old since she didn't act like it...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:46   Link #13375
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Notice how the behaviour of early, trolling Beatrice, resembles the behaviour of a child tearing wings off flying insects and watching them suffer, torturing small animals, tying empty cans to a cat's tail...
...Didn't Hideyoshi mention something about doing this when he was younger? If that's forshadowing, then. Well, I don't even

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Spoiler for EP 6:
A slight tangent, but this may be a reference to isolation chambers and the like. If you're in a locked space with absolutely nothing in it, boredom will literally kill you. You'll hallucinate, panic, etc. Sometimes leads to death, even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Also remember that Ep1-2 are supposed to have been written by a different author. Maybe it's Featherinne who hates Bern and likes Beato?...
This would require a lot of trolling. We already know Featherine is trolling Ange- if she's trolling Bern too, whose side is she on? Is she on her own side? (And if that's the case, what can she gain from all this?)
Volcanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:49   Link #13376
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
...Didn't Hideyoshi mention something about doing this when he was younger? If that's forshadowing, then. Well, I don't even
That was EVA Beatrice and she says this to both Rosa and Hideyoshi. I used to throw stones at spider webs when I was a kid for fun. I grew out of it in a year and was by no means a "problem child". I'm sure a lot people went through phases like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Sorry if this has already been answered, but..

I remember in EP6 or EP5, someone saying how "even 6 years could feel like 1000 years if you're waiting" ... for someone you love, was it? Or waiting for a promise?

Worth going back into the game, but I remember reading something like this leading me to realize how Beatrice could be created 6 years ago and yet insist she was 1000 years old. Because I was suspicious of her actually being 1000 years old since she didn't act like it...
This is exactly what I meant when I said it was a metaphor, but you put it into words better.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:54   Link #13377
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Supposing that Beatrice represents a fictional character, then there's a more literal interpretation. Six years ago, someone on the island created the character Beatrice who has lived for a thousand years in their story.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:56   Link #13378
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Supposing that Beatrice represents a fictional character, then there's a more literal interpretation. Six years ago, someone on the island created the character Beatrice who has lived for a thousand years in their story.
If neither Shannon nor Jessica could love Battler from his statement in EP6 then basing the portrait off of the character of that type of person, and embellishing it would be ideal. The portrait is said to have appeared in 1984 so there are no contradictions.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:57   Link #13379
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
This would require a lot of trolling. We already know Featherine is trolling Ange- if she's trolling Bern too, whose side is she on? Is she on her own side? (And if that's the case, what can she gain from all this?)
Why do witches burn? ...er. I mean, Why do people troll? Certainly not for material gain, nor for the betterment of mankind, no matter what some will say.

Any of the characters described as witches, with the sole exception of Virgilia, very clearly seem to lack generally altruistic motives altogether -- when they do something that benefits someone else, it's not because they would help anyone, it's because the someone is special for them or because they are ultimately pushing for a goal of their own.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 19:57   Link #13380
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Probably. But then, as was pointed about above, it's easy to justify any kind of contradictory behaviour just by saying "they were acting".

It's just like saying "a witch did it". It doesn't really explain anything by itself, you know?
Can you point to me examples of this? I don't recall third person narration doing that. Mind you again, the third person narration is ominous and can very well be Featherinne (or if you're talking about EP 1-2, it would be the person who wrote those tales).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I'd be perfectly fine with this interpretation if the third-person narration didn't contradict it. I'm well aware that it can be unreliable, but that should only apply to board scenes, not meta ones...
Meta-World scenes are also written by Featherinne and whoever the author of EP 1-2 is, so yes it can be misleading if it wants to be. But again, can you point to examples of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, that perfectly justifies their actions, but, then, why are we told early on that all witches are cruel, heartless, eternally bored beings?

I'm not comfortable with a narrative that keeps retconning itself, which I suppose is why I am comfortable with pretending the Meta-World doesn't exist.

At that point we were only introduced to three witches. Also at that time, Beatrice was still acting as the cruel witch. The only time she didn't act that way was in the presence of someone like Virgilia or Ronove only. In EP 4 we even see her feeling sorry for trolling Battler, when he isn't around. Why would she lie then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In all, I'm more inclined to believe that it's this. Maybe Ryukishi fell in love with Beato's character while writing and decided to make her into a good person, changing the story to reflect that fact.
I don't agree with that in the least. Even in EP 2 you see signs of her acting if you look close enough. The scene where she says a human's promise is the most unreliable thing is especially telling after you go through EP 5.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.