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Old 2010-07-07, 20:02   Link #13381
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If neither Shannon nor Jessica could love Battler from his statement in EP6 then basing the portrait off of the character of that type of person, and embellishing it would be ideal. The portrait is said to have appeared in 1984 so there are no contradictions.
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:09   Link #13382
Ronove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
Maybe it's pre-ordered by Kinzo? No one said that it was hand-painted with a model or came from America along with the Stakes as the bonus package.

However, judging the fact Rosa actually met Beatrice years ago, I would say the camera would have at least been invented and Kinzo found an old one somewhere. Or little did we know Kinzo is an artist
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:12   Link #13383
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
You said yourself that Jessica said she's surprised how well everyone can draw. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the cousins drew it in highschool and gave it to someone as a gift and they just don't remember...

Spoiler for huh:
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:17   Link #13384
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
However, judging the fact Rosa actually met Beatrice years ago, I would say the camera would have at least been invented and Kinzo found an old one somewhere. Or little did we know Kinzo is an artist
Kinzo, not sure, however at one point in Ep1, Battler is amazed that every of his cousins 'sure can draw'... I wonder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the cousins drew it in highschool gave it to someone as a gift and they just don't remember...

Spoiler for huh:
That would work. Though drawing a huge portrait like that is a bloody lot of work.

On the other hand... 'Beatrice, love him for me' said to a portrait being created would work perfectly.
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:23   Link #13385
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
'Beatrice, love him for me' said to a portrait being created would work perfectly.
In the end it just means Battler loves women in only 2 dimensions... and this is Japan we're talking about...
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:25   Link #13386
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
In the end it just means Battler loves women in only 2 dimensions... and this is Japan we're talking about...
Well, at least that settles what to give him for his birthday.

A steamroller.
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:32   Link #13387
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Can you point to me examples of this?
Any time the narration refers to "Beatrice's boredom", or her being cruel, or something of that kind, when Meta-Battler is around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Did any of those things actually exist in the meta-context before they were mentioned, even?
I'd like some consistency, so, yes, I'd hope so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Meta-Beatrice is an aggregate of all the entities bearing or using the name 'Beatrice' for their own ends, and exists entirely inside Battler's mind. As he slowly becomes aware of new facts and interpretations of situations previously observed (ostensibly through Meta-Beatrice, but actually, through other means -- imagine that Meta-Battler is actually reading stories with himself, or rather, what the author thinks of him, as the hero. With footnotes that give rise to the red text. He's imagining the metaworld activities to give shape to his thoughts as it makes it easier to convey them to us, in turn.) and forgets others, his interpretation of the entire Beatrice conglomerate changes, and so does Meta-Beatrice as an expression of that interpretation.
So Meta-Beatrice's personality alters based upon her current role in the story and how much Battler/The Reader knows about her?

Okay, yeah, that definitely makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I used to throw stones at spider webs when I was a kid for fun.
You didn't torture small animals, though, I bet.

Killing something people consider disgusting, like a bug, is a sign of being a normal kid. Catching a fox in a trap and watching it chew its own leg off is a sign of sociopathy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
...How long has that portrait existed? It was put up in 1984, yes, but how long has it EXISTED?
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:46   Link #13388
Ronove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

...How long has that portrait existed? It was put up in 1984, yes, but how long has it EXISTED?
Well, the portrait was put up in 1984, yes. But it seems Kinzo and Rosa would confirm that THAT person is Beatrice (assuming Rosa's story is true and scenes of Kinzo are semi-true in a sense).

However, if that wasn't Beatrice, who is Rosa thinking of Beatrice otherwise?
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:48   Link #13389
Ronove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You said yourself that Jessica said she's surprised how well everyone can draw. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the cousins drew it in highschool and gave it to someone as a gift and they just don't remember...

Spoiler for huh:
Battler stalked a woman and painted her = Sin!

Also, judging from that quote on how 'everyone can draw', I would make this weird theory:
Beatrice is a messed up family portrait!
1. Red Dress = Krauss' suit.
2: Hairstyle and figure = Jessica's hairstyle/figure
3. Something with Natsushi?
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:01   Link #13390
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about her killing Battler's family over and over again (that never happened to begin with) I'm talking about her actions in the Meta-World.

Even if she's 'acting' for 'Battler's sake'... that doesn't make murdering him repeatedly alright, does it?

Which is why all the HATE BERN, LOVE BEATO confuses me.
Yeah I understand the difference, but yet I have my theory even for this one, and the funny part is it's completely different from any other interpretation I've seen so far. But mine is correct because it has love! j/k.

The first thing that must be understood is that the metaworld isn't exactly like the real world. It's not really a fictional world like the gameboard but it isn't reality either. The metaworld is literally a place where metaphors take form.

That means that all the evil things Beatrice did to Battler are certainly evil, but you shouldn't forget that they are metaphors. When she killed Battler, she only did it metaphorically, whe she hurt him, she only did it metaphorically. The problem is that metaphors in the metaworld seems like the real thing, but you need to see through them.

So why Beatrice hurts Battler, anyway?

Because he deserves it. Beatrice of course loves Battler, but there's no love without hate. You need to think of Beatrice as a girl who nurtured an immense love for Battler, she lives for not other purpose. And yet Batter trampled on those feelings, his sin is a terrible sin against love, and because of that Beatrice lived the next 6 years between paradise and hell, forever torn apart in a limbo called purgatorio. In the metaworld those 6 years became 1000 years. A seemingly endless torture that brought her to total despair and ultimately made her lose any hope.
Because of that, she wants Battler to feel even a bit of that torture, she wants him to know how she felt, and yet she loves him, and can't go beyond a certain point and she can't help but wishing he will finally understand everything so that she can regain hope.
In the metaworld they might appear as unforgivable physical tortures, but in the real world all those would translate in psychological tortures of a less lower magnitude.
Think about this. If a mere discussion in the metaworld translates as a fierce battle with swords blood and devastating attacks, then what is a stake piercing your shoulder? Nothing more than a stingy remark.

When Battler in the end understood what he's done, and how much Beatrice must have suffered, he forgave her everything. He burst crying and among all other things he realized that anything he passed through till that point was nothing compared to what Beatrice had to endure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Of course, what REALLY makes no sense is Virgilia's silly, trollish behaviour, which is forgotten entirely after Ep4.
I think Virgilia has been quite trollish in EP5 too. She kept telling and not telling Battler stuff. She made allusions and never explained anything concretely. And it became even worse when she and Dlanor joined forces and started talking about love sneering in front of the clueless Battler.
Of course it was a troll finalized for the good, but still trolling it was, and he trollish behavior in EP3-4 had the same purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Sorry if this has already been answered, but..

I remember in EP6 or EP5, someone saying how "even 6 years could feel like 1000 years if you're waiting" ... for someone you love, was it? Or waiting for a promise?

Worth going back into the game, but I remember reading something like this leading me to realize how Beatrice could be created 6 years ago and yet insist she was 1000 years old. Because I was suspicious of her actually being 1000 years old since she didn't act like it...
I think this is almost a red truth. Beatrice was created 6 years before, but because of Battler's sin they became 6 years of torture. That torture in the metaworld lasted 1000 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
A slight tangent, but this may be a reference to isolation chambers and the like. If you're in a locked space with absolutely nothing in it, boredom will literally kill you. You'll hallucinate, panic, etc. Sometimes leads to death, even.
That! But a quadrillion times worse.
If what Bern had to endure was a universe that spouted garbage and nonsense in an endless circle until by mere chance it became something sansate, and if that probability was the same as there is that a monkey would write the hamlet without typos by pressing button randomly, then not even the total sum of all the atoms in the universe could reach the number of years Bern had to spend in that hell.
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:04   Link #13391
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah I understand the difference, but yet I have my theory even for this one, and the funny part is it's completely different from any other interpretation I've seen so far. But mine is correct because it has love! j/k.

The first thing that must be understood is that the metaworld isn't exactly like the real world. It's not really a fictional world like the gameboard but it isn't reality either. The metaworld is literally a place where metaphors take form.

That means that all the evil things Beatrice did to Battler are certainly evil, but you shouldn't forget that they are metaphors. When she killed Battler, she only did it metaphorically, whe she hurt him, she only did it metaphorically. The problem is that metaphors in the metaworld seems like the real thing, but you need to see through them.

So why Beatrice hurts Battler, anyway?

Because he deserves it. Beatrice of course loves Battler, but there's no love without hate. You need to think of Beatrice as a girl who nurtured an immense love for Battler, she lives for not other purpose. And yet Batter trampled on those feelings, his sin is a terrible sin against love, and because of that Beatrice lived the next 6 years between paradise and hell, forever torn apart in a limbo called purgatorio. In the metaworld those 6 years became 1000 years. A seemingly endless torture that brought her to total despair and ultimately made her lose any hope.
Because of that, she wants Battler to feel even a bit of that torture, she wants him to know how she felt, and yet she loves him, and can't go beyond a certain point and she can't help but wishing he will finally understand everything so that she can regain hope.
In the metaworld they might appear as unforgivable physical tortures, but in the real world all those would translate in psychological tortures.

When Battler in the end understood what he's done, and how much Beatrice must have suffered, he forgave her everything. He burst crying and among all other things he realized that anything he passed through till that point was nothing compared to what Beatrice had to endure.




I think Virgilia has been quite trollish in EP5 too. She kept telling and not telling Battler stuff. She made allusions and never explained anything concretely. And it became even worse when she and Dlanor joined forces and started talking about love sneering in front of the clueless Battler.
Of course it was a troll finalized for the good, but still trolling it was, and he trollish behavior in EP3-4 had the same purpose.



I think this is almost a red truth. Beatrice was created 6 years before, but because of Battler's sin they became 6 years of torture. That torture in the metaworld lasted 1000 years.



That! But a quadrillion times worse.
If what Bern had to endure was a universe that spouted garbage and nonsense in an endless circle until by mere chance it became something sansate, and if that probability was the same as there is that a monkey would write the hamlet without typos by pressing button randomly, then not even the total sum of all the atoms in the universe could reach the number of years Bern had to spend in that hell.
That's a good thought, but what about the sin which I am asking you to repeat is not between Battler and Beatrice?

Everything else seems to be sound otherwise.
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:09   Link #13392
Jan-Poo
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Well of course the sin is against the person that existed before Beatrice, the one that created Beatrice. However Beatrice inherited all the love she had for Battler, and with the love even the bad feeling and the sadness.

That's why even if Beatrice is another person, she understand the sadness of that sin as if it was done to her. And that's why Battler thought that he sinned against her.
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:13   Link #13393
Ronove
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
That's a good thought, but what about the sin which I am asking you to repeat is not between Battler and Beatrice?

Everything else seems to be sound otherwise.
Ugh. What's with Witch's and allusions/metaphors/kanji trickery!
(Obviously because they want to exist....)!

Does referring to first or last names differ in Japanese? I know there's a Respect-System based off it, then again thinking of 'the Nanjo from Osaka' rather than 'Nanjo on Rokkenjima' thing is used.
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:15   Link #13394
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But all the "torture" that Beatrice did to Battler was pretty much so that he could grow up, you know. Without EP2, Battler wouldnt have suspected of his family and would still think a unknown person X did it. If Beatrice didnt torture Rosa at the end, Battler would have given up. Without EP3 and EP4 with Ange's death, Battler'd hesitate and avoid killing her.. If Battler took it seriously from the beginning Beatrice wouldnt have to do all that acting which in a way was a torture for her. This is pretty much what he says in EP5. Even Ange has said that Battler was just playing around in the first 4 episodes. Even Bernkastel thinks that. Without all that we'd probably have EP100 by now and Battler'd still be incompetent.
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:17   Link #13395
Jan-Poo
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I don't deny that torturing Rosa was done to make Battler react. But all the rest she did it as revenge, at least a bit was because of that!

Think about the scene in EP4 where Maria repeatedly kills her mother. Beatrice is sad at seeing Maria doing so, but she knows Maria needs it, because she herself understand that.
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:32   Link #13396
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Think about the scene in EP4 where Maria repeatedly kills her mother. Beatrice is sad at seeing Maria doing so, but she knows Maria needs it, because she herself understand that.
Maybe it's just our differences in values, but I really don't think having Maria murder her mother repeatedly is very healthy for her.

In fact, she comes out of that scene FAR less mentally stable than she was going into it.
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:34   Link #13397
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That scene messes her up. Ange is the one who helps her. Isn't that the entire point of the Ange/Maria arc?
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:52   Link #13398
DaBackpack
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That scene messes her up. Ange is the one who helps her. Isn't that the entire point of the Ange/Maria arc?
Maybe Beatrice thought it would help, but was miserably wrong? She is prone to error, after all.
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:54   Link #13399
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
I still vote for Kinzo dying before the portrait. And the model is our Beatrice on the island. I have said this before, making the portrait look like yourself makes you a very convincing Beatrice. The trick is making it look different from yourself at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Why do witches burn? ...er. I mean, Why do people troll? Certainly not for material gain, nor for the betterment of mankind, no matter what some will say.
Featherinne is the witch of plays. She is creating her own drama by trolling various witches.
But, that's a witch. Why do people troll? Probably for the same reason, to create overblown drama.
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Old 2010-07-07, 23:21   Link #13400
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Maybe Beatrice thought it would help, but was miserably wrong? She is prone to error, after all.
I think that was meant to show how "black magic", as in magic or thoughts that "harm" another being, is bad for all involved, even the witch creating it. In fact, with Beatrice, you can almost see that it creates an insane addiction because the witch tries so hard to "fix" herself with something that just harms everybody in the end. I think at one point it was compared to a drug, and that's pretty accurate.

In contrast you have Maria's earlier "white magic", which is supposed to bring happiness and healing. You can see the obvious parallels with the love/hate theme, too .
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