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Old 2010-07-07, 23:38   Link #13401
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Maybe Beatrice thought it would help, but was miserably wrong? She is prone to error, after all.
I disagree sort of. If it worked the way Beatrice intended it, (If my thoughts on the scene is correct) then things would be fine.. When you are full of rage at someone, you first have to let go of that anger, otherwise you will never forgive that person. Maria's a young child she probably doesn't understand this, so taking your anger out on something is how she does it. It probably isn't Rosa Maria is actually killing. Remember that was a meta-scene and as Jan-poo said it is a world of metaphors. Maria wants to take her rage out at her mother, so that was how it appeared to happen in the meta-world.
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Old 2010-07-07, 23:39   Link #13402
imaginari
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Why are people assuming that Beatrice was supposed to be "nice" all along? "Tragic," "complicated," and "putting on an act to help Batter" don't make her good; she's still a witch, still did the nasty things that we've seen her do. I assumed that her awareness of her awful nature was one of the reasons that she wanted to die and that her on-island counterpart might end the same way.

Yeah, Chiru has been sappy as hell towards her, but since she spent half of it in a coma and the other half as someone else, she couldn't be considered out of character. People's behavior toward her would qualify, I guess, but that's not quite the same.

And with EP7 in a month showing the murders, if Meta-Beatrice can be equated with Island-Beatrice, I'm sure (I hope!) that she can be scary again.
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Old 2010-07-07, 23:44   Link #13403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
Why are people assuming that Beatrice was supposed to be "nice" all along? "Tragic," "complicated," and "putting on an act to help Batter" don't make her good; she's still a witch, still did the nasty things that we've seen her do. I assumed that her awareness of her awful nature was one of the reasons that she wanted to die and that her on-island counterpart might end the same way.
.
I've thought that she was a tragic person since the end of ep3. People are a lot more complex then just a simple trait as "cruel." And the reason I understood that she wanted to die was because she was giving up on Battler. He was getting so far from the truth, she didn't care at all anymore if the truth was found, she lost hope. She was starting to lose faith in Battler during ep3, and when he was still clueless she made ep4 contain tons of clues to help him reach the answer, yet he didn't see them at all, and he didn't even understand the main starting point that causes his family to die "his sin."
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Old 2010-07-08, 00:20   Link #13404
Raiza Sunozaki
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I know I'm a twenty pages or so late (sheesh, you guys move fast), but I've got another theory for our two new characters. It's a bit strange, but I think it works nicely.
So, we know for a fact (or a damn good assumption) that the Game Master must play for the magic side of the gameboard. Beato did so in Episode 1-4, Lambda did in 5, and Meta-Battler did in 6. If we are to assume from the end of Episode 6 that Bern is to be the Game Master of Episode 7, then she will have to play for the magic side. So who's to play the human side?
My first guess at this one was Mis AuAu, but I get a feeling that she's kind of lazy and would rather have other people doing her work. Second guess was Battler, but after being put through all that hell in previous games, I get the feeling it's time to let him rest. After all, Sorceror Battler shows up once in the new OP.
My third guess was that Miss AuAu sends in a meta-human to do her job, like Bern with Erika. And against Bern, who better to send in than a human version of her original opponent, Beatrice? So I still stand by the theory of Red Suit being the human version of Beatrice, who Kinzo was infatuated with. We know that Beatrice was also an avid mystery lover, and that she's familiar with Dine. So maybe, like Erika with Dlanor, she brings in Dine to help her crush the fantasy and solve the mystery.
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Old 2010-07-08, 00:38   Link #13405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I know I'm a twenty pages or so late
*snip*
Dine is only allowed if he will get as insane as Dlanor did, you know what I mean. With all the CheckFINISHED checkFINISHED checkFINISHED checkcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED <Die The death!> <Sentence to death!> <Great equalizer is The Death!> and lines to that effect. That was probably my favorite thing about Dlanor, I don't even know why.
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Old 2010-07-08, 00:44   Link #13406
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Dine is only allowed if he will get as insane as Dlanor did, you know what I mean. With all the CheckFINISHED checkFINISHED checkFINISHED checkcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED <Die The death!> <Sentence to death!> <Great equalizer is The Death!> and lines to that effect. That was probably my favorite thing about Dlanor, I don't even know why.
Because it shows you can take solving a mystery fairly and seriously, and be completely insane at the same time? Erika just took it seriously about enjoying herself, while also being insane.
Still, while it would be amusing, I see Dine as more of a serious and sane character, if only for contrast against Dlanor. Fan artists are already drawing him with troll faces, but they don't seem to fit him.
On a side note, next time I have to solve a mytery for some inexplicable reason, I am so using Dlanor's lines.
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Old 2010-07-08, 01:17   Link #13407
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Wedges?

Hey, I was just thinking about the closed rooms thing, and I think I've come up with something that may help.

This solution is simple; in fact, I'd say it's stupidly easy. But it may solve some of the cases in Umineko. However, it really depends on how the doors function.

Suppose the culprit has a wedge with which to keep the doors open. In other words, they could unlock the door from the outside by normal means, place the wedge in the door to keep it open (and thus unlocked), return the key, and commit the crimes in the room.

I'll take this a step further:

Using the wedge to keep the door open while the crimes are committed, the culprit puts the door in the "lock" position. However, the door does not lock until it closes! Thus, the door is not actually "locked from the inside" until the door closes and the culprit is outside.

At least on the doors in my house, the door can be in the "locked" position but still be left ajar. When the door is closed, the door is locked because the lock is in the "locked" position. I do not know if the Ushiromiyas' doors work the same way though; in fact, this definitely will not work if the Ushiromiyas' locks have bolts. It also does not solve the chains (as seen in the Second Twilight of EP1).

Before I elaborate on this, I want to know if any of the Red Texts interfere with this idea. I know it can solve the First Twilight in EP2 (based on the English translation) based on all my current knowledge of the Red Texts from EP2-EP5. Battler's idea in EP2 was disproven later on; has there been a conclusive solution to that yet?

Boy, I'll feel really silly if this has already been brought up


EDIT: Upon rereading the list of the Red Truths, the locking mechanisms on most of the doors disallow the second part of my theory. Regardless, there is nothing in EP2-5 that conflicts with the speculation about the wedges, right? Or am I missing something?

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2010-07-08 at 01:36.
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Old 2010-07-08, 02:23   Link #13408
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Hey, I was just thinking about the closed rooms thing, and I think I've come up with something that may help.

This solution is simple; in fact, I'd say it's stupidly easy. But it may solve some of the cases in Umineko. However, it really depends on how the doors function.

Suppose the culprit has a wedge with which to keep the doors open. In other words, they could unlock the door from the outside by normal means, place the wedge in the door to keep it open (and thus unlocked), return the key, and commit the crimes in the room.
That is all well and dandy, and that would keep the door open while they commit the crime, but to lock the door the door must be shut. Since Rokkenjima seems like the older type of doors, since they have no space under the door. My grandma's house has a door like that, it has to be firmly shut to lock the door. If it is locked when the door isn't shut the door can't close shut. So in the end if they use wedges they still have to find a way to return the key back into the room with the door shut and locked.
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Old 2010-07-08, 03:19   Link #13409
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Which is why all the HATE BERN, LOVE BEATO confuses me.
Bern does not act the same as Beato. Not remotely.

Bern sets herself up as an ally to the reader even more than Battler. When put in the position of power, she gleefully performs the distasteful (how ever necessary) act of trying to drag these characters we care about through the mud in the most horrible of ways.

The only person Beato ever made look bad was herself. She made the rest of the Ushiromiya household look like tragic heroes. That's why we can sympathize and even like her when we realize that she was doing it all on purpose, partially out of pain, misery, and spite, but also to help Battler reach the truth with his own power.

One of them betrayed our trust, the other one proved worthy of more trust than we expected. Two completely different scenarios that will provoke two wildly different reactions.

Even if you don't think Beato is good or deserving of sympathy--though I've "trusted" her since EP3, even after the ending--I don't think it makes much sense to argue that Bern has similar motivations towards helping Battler or the Ushiromiya family in general.
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Old 2010-07-08, 04:23   Link #13410
Almazluverdis3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Dine is only allowed if he will get as insane as Dlanor did, you know what I mean. With all the CheckFINISHED checkFINISHED checkFINISHED checkcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED <Die The death!> <Sentence to death!> <Great equalizer is The Death!> and lines to that effect. That was probably my favorite thing about Dlanor, I don't even know why.
Hell yeah.
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Old 2010-07-08, 05:42   Link #13411
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And once again we come to the question who the hell made it and whether there was a model.
And it's not actually only the portrait. The "original" epitaph too. In episode 1, it is mentioned by George/Jessica that Kinzo "Had that written", which means that it was not Kinzo himself who actually put that epitaph there. In fact, it's said that the epitaph was written "two years ago", but nothing more specific than that, which could mean that the portrait and epitaph were not presented simultaneously.
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Old 2010-07-08, 09:07   Link #13412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Dine is only allowed if he will get as insane as Dlanor did, you know what I mean. With all the CheckFINISHED checkFINISHED checkFINISHED checkcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED <Die The death!> <Sentence to death!> <Great equalizer is The Death!> and lines to that effect. That was probably my favorite thing about Dlanor, I don't even know why.
The most deadly power Dlanor has is her ability to seal blue and red truths without the need to provide any reason as to why she can do so and why the rules allow such a thing.

Considering Wright is said to be a lot stronger then he should make full use of such power. I imagine the scene:

Witch: I will slash your blue truth with my red! The closed room is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: What the...? Okay then the murder is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Well then I can counter your blue by making my own blue about...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Okay! You wanted it! Prepare to feel the power of my gold truuuuuuth!!!

Wright (evil and insane face): I've got bad news for you: I CAN SEAL GOLD!!!

SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED
<Burn to dust!> <ash to the ash!> <rest in peace!> <AAAAAAMEEEEEEEN!!!!!>


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Hey, I was just thinking about the closed rooms thing, and I think I've come up with something that may help.

This solution is simple; in fact, I'd say it's stupidly easy. But it may solve some of the cases in Umineko. However, it really depends on how the doors function.

Suppose the culprit has a wedge with which to keep the doors open. In other words, they could unlock the door from the outside by normal means, place the wedge in the door to keep it open (and thus unlocked), return the key, and commit the crimes in the room.

I'll take this a step further:

Using the wedge to keep the door open while the crimes are committed, the culprit puts the door in the "lock" position. However, the door does not lock until it closes! Thus, the door is not actually "locked from the inside" until the door closes and the culprit is outside.

At least on the doors in my house, the door can be in the "locked" position but still be left ajar. When the door is closed, the door is locked because the lock is in the "locked" position. I do not know if the Ushiromiyas' doors work the same way though; in fact, this definitely will not work if the Ushiromiyas' locks have bolts. It also does not solve the chains (as seen in the Second Twilight of EP1).

Before I elaborate on this, I want to know if any of the Red Texts interfere with this idea. I know it can solve the First Twilight in EP2 (based on the English translation) based on all my current knowledge of the Red Texts from EP2-EP5. Battler's idea in EP2 was disproven later on; has there been a conclusive solution to that yet?

Boy, I'll feel really silly if this has already been brought up


EDIT: Upon rereading the list of the Red Truths, the locking mechanisms on most of the doors disallow the second part of my theory. Regardless, there is nothing in EP2-5 that conflicts with the speculation about the wedges, right? Or am I missing something?
It goes against the definition of "perfect closed room".
In your example the closed room would become really so only at the time the wedge is removed. But for your theory to work the culprit must be outside at that point. and it is impossible to create a closed room from outside.
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Old 2010-07-08, 09:29   Link #13413
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The most deadly power Dlanor has is her ability to seal blue and red truths without the need to provide any reason as to why she can do so and why the rules allow such a thing.

Considering Wright is said to be a lot stronger then he should make full use of such power. I imagine the scene:

Witch: I will slash your blue truth with my red! The closed room is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: What the...? Okay then the murder is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Well then I can counter your blue by making my own blue about...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Okay! You wanted it! Prepare to feel the power of my gold truuuuuuth!!!

Wright (evil and insane face): I've got bad news for you: I CAN SEAL GOLD!!!

SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED
<Burn to dust!> <ash to the ash!> <rest in peace!> <AAAAAAMEEEEEEEN!!!!!>
.
In that case we'll probably take all Umineko's cds and throw'em out of the window in rage.
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:15   Link #13414
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The most deadly power Dlanor has is her ability to seal blue and red truths without the need to provide any reason as to why she can do so and why the rules allow such a thing.

Considering Wright is said to be a lot stronger then he should make full use of such power. I imagine the scene:

Witch: I will slash your blue truth with my red! The closed room is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: What the...? Okay then the murder is...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Well then I can counter your blue by making my own blue about...

Wright: Sealed.

Witch: Okay! You wanted it! Prepare to feel the power of my gold truuuuuuth!!!

Wright (evil and insane face): I've got bad news for you: I CAN SEAL GOLD!!!

SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED SEALED
<Burn to dust!> <ash to the ash!> <rest in peace!> <AAAAAAMEEEEEEEN!!!!!>
While this made me laugh, I don't think we're going to see Dine sealing everything. I always thought that the sealing of coloured text was restricted to certain situations, in which the use of the coloured text cannot guarrantee the status of the scene. For example, use of red to prove Kinzo's corpse was forbidden since there was no person available at the time of announcing the red who could prove it was Kinzo's corpse through human means. Even by having someone alive to see the corpse and say "yep, that's Kinzo's body" would've worked, as no one can mistake Kinzo on sight.
I'm still not quite clear on the sealing of the blue in Episode 6, but I'd think it would fit similar reasons.
As well, while Bern would be playing for the magic side, she too wants to uncover the human truth of Rokkenjima, so this game looks like it might be like two players holding a chess game just to see what happens when you put one piece here and another here...
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:20   Link #13415
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Come to think of it, who the hell is playing the human side in this game? The end of EP6 made it clear that Bernkastel and Featherine weren't going to act like witches, but doesn't there need to be some kind of opponent? Or not?
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:23   Link #13416
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Come to think of it, who the hell is playing the human side in this game?
It can be solitaire!
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:28   Link #13417
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Come to think of it, who the hell is playing the human side in this game? The end of EP6 made it clear that Bernkastel and Featherine weren't going to act like witches, but doesn't there need to be some kind of opponent? Or not?
As I said above, I think it's going to be Miss Red Suit, with Dine acting in as her assistant, like Dlanor to Erika.
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:35   Link #13418
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It can be solitaire!
Well, it really might be. After all, Featherine and Bern called themselves monsters instead of witches. Since the game has always been humans vs witch, this may just be them playing by themselves.

Hmm, another thing. Bern is playing as the Game Master even though she doesn't know the full truth. It might be that her opponent is the game itself. That'd explain the 'ripping the guts out' part too...
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:35   Link #13419
Jan-Poo
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For a completely new player to enter the game you still need to a witch that would bring him there.

But I can't believe Lambda would play on the human side. She's been watching behind the scene of every game so far, she knows all the tricks, it would be too unfair for her to play on the human side.

By the way, if Bern's plan is to unravel the truth, how can she make the human side lose?

Quote:
Hmm, another thing. Bern is playing as the Game Master even though she doesn't know the truth. It might be that her opponent is the game itself. That'd explain the 'ripping the guts out' part too...
I think she gets a very big advantage from start. She might not know all the truths, but she can see the gameboard now. Certainly some tricks should have become apparent to her now.
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Old 2010-07-08, 11:57   Link #13420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Bern does not act the same as Beato. Not remotely.

Bern sets herself up as an ally to the reader even more than Battler. When put in the position of power, she gleefully performs the distasteful (how ever necessary) act of trying to drag these characters we care about through the mud in the most horrible of ways.

The only person Beato ever made look bad was herself. She made the rest of the Ushiromiya household look like tragic heroes. That's why we can sympathize and even like her when we realize that she was doing it all on purpose, partially out of pain, misery, and spite, but also to help Battler reach the truth with his own power.
Okay I like this, episode 1-2 have beatrice as the villain and the Ushiromiya's as the victims heck even Rosa gets some kind of redemption at the end of ep2. Alongside this runs Battlers constant refusal to lay the blame on any of the 18 people he's met or think are on the Island insisting on the presence of a 19th person.

A thought then, if the meta world is as said earlier a world of metaphors, could Beato be to some extent a metaphor of Battler's motivation as well as the other aspects applied to her?

I seem to have gone off on a tangent here and lost what i was going to say... oh well.
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