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Old 2010-07-08, 18:11   Link #13461
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Battler has never seen a corpse before and there's no red declaration of her death at all.
Um... what? He essentially saw every corpse in Episode 2 except George's and Gohda's. And the detective's perspective itself essentially the same as a red declaration. We even have a red saying the people in the chapel 'were dead by the time they were discovered'.

Frankly if you argued Jessica's corpse was Kanon's dressed up as Jessica I'd beleive you have a reason to think she could be the culprit since he took that corpse's pulse, but otherwise no she's dead.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:17   Link #13462
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Um... what? He essentially saw every corpse in Episode 2 except George's and Gohda's. And the detective's perspective itself essentially the same as a red declaration. We even have a red saying the people in the chapel 'were dead by the time they were discovered'.
Battler can still be fooled.

And what I meant is that Battler had never seen a corpse before that day. He doesn't actually know how to tell if someone is dead.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Frankly if you argued Jessica's corpse was Kanon's dressed up as Jessica I'd beleive you have a reason to think she could be the culprit since he took that corpse's pulse, but otherwise no she's dead.
...Did he actually take the corpse's pulse? All he says is that he "made sure it was dead". We're never told how he did that.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:21   Link #13463
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Did he actually take the corpse's pulse? All he says is that he "made sure it was dead". We're never told how he did that.
I'm pretty sure he says that he's never taken a pulse before, but that he was certain that Jessica was dead when he checked. I think Beato was just giving him a hint on how he could argue a human culprit in that scene. She doesn't really think it's Jessica.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:24   Link #13464
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm pretty sure he says that he's never taken a pulse before, but that he was certain that Jessica was dead when he checked.
I don't think Rosa would have let him touch the body... all I remember him saying is that he "made sure it was dead", which means little given his inexperience with corpses and his stress levels at the time.

I dunno, I just stuck on it because it's a comparatively easy way to explain Ep2 compared to George murdering two people and then suiciding inside a locked room.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:32   Link #13465
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I dunno, I just stuck on it because it's a comparatively easy way to explain Ep2 compared to George murdering two people and then suiciding inside a locked room.
Who's to say it was a suicide? Perhaps it was a conflict between culprits and Gohda, who may or may not have been part of the culprit group. Gohda was mortally wounded and locked the door, in order to avoid people uncovering them. Somebody did, and they are the ones who staked them.
Or possibly, Gohda was still alive, when a murderer entered the room, killed him, staked them all and then locked the room.
Possibilites exist.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:42   Link #13466
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The stomach isn't even a lethal spot. There is no red declaration and Battler never checked George or Gohda. He only checked Shannon. George could simply be faking after he got in a struggle with Gohda and Shannon.
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Old 2010-07-08, 18:44   Link #13467
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Possibilites exist.
If none of the three people in the room had the stakes, then there was no way the room could have been locked upon discovery to begin with. The only keys that could lock the door were either inside the room or under the control of 'Rosa'.

If one of the three in the room DOES have the stakes, it has to be George, as he's the only one who could have killed himself.

George or Rosa are the only culprit options, basically.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
George could simply be faking after he got in a struggle with Gohda and Shannon.
Well, if I'm going to support Jessica being alive with a stake in her back, I'm going to have to admit this.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:01   Link #13468
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The detective can be fooled, or can do things incorrectly. The only thing the detective will not do is lie to us. So, looking into a hole in someone's head is hard to debate. However, screwing up on taking a pulse is debatable.

That being said, I recall Battler not checking the corpses of about 10 of the characters.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:01   Link #13469
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He's too nice and there are no hints pointing towards him.
Actually, if you look at episode 5, Hideyoshi acts very weirdly through that whole episode. Even though Eva starts the most confrontations with Natsuhi, it's actually Hideyoshi who very quickly becomes the main accuser, being very aggressive, which is very strange when comparing to what we usually see of him.

Not to mention the scene in Kinzo's study, where Eva takes out the receipt, Natsuhi asks what it is, and suddenly Hideyoshi takes over the reigns, explains in detail what was done with that receipt and what it proves, etc. It's like it was actually him who put it there, not Eva.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:03   Link #13470
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Actually, if you look at episode 5, Hideyoshi acts very weirdly through that whole episode. Even though Eva starts the most confrontations with Natsuhi, it's actually Hideyoshi who very quickly becomes the main accuser, being very aggressive, which is very strange when comparing to what we usually see of him.
This doesn't make him the murderer at all, though.

In Ep5, everyone in the family is trying to bully Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:07   Link #13471
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This doesn't make him the murderer at all, though.

In Ep5, everyone in the family is trying to bully Natsuhi.
Pretty much everyone besides Battler and Natsuhi herself.

Hideyoshi does a few things that are questionable. For instance, his testimony in the metaworld of episode 3. But who doesn't? We have Nanjo and Moon-chan who are both at least as suspicious as Hideyoshi. All of the servants demand suspicion, too.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:07   Link #13472
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In Ep5, everyone in the family is trying to bully Natsuhi.
Come to think of it, has anyone come up with an idea for why everyone is bullying Natsuhi? I've tried, but it doesn't really make sense. The only idea I can think of is an attempt to get at Krauss by abusing his wife... though they end up kidnapping him in the progress, so it feels kind of redundant. Ends up not making much sense.
What do you people have?
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:09   Link #13473
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Come to think of it, has anyone come up with an idea for why everyone is bullying Natsuhi? I've tried, but it doesn't really make sense. The only idea I can think of is an attempt to get at Krauss by abusing his wife... though they end up kidnapping him in the progress, so it feels kind of redundant. Ends up not making much sense.
What do you people have?
Well, if we believe what we are shown in episode 5... she was framed pretty well. After the framing started it would not be hard to suspect Natsuhi, so it's not like they are actually bullying her.
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Old 2010-07-08, 19:34   Link #13474
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Come to think of it, has anyone come up with an idea for why everyone is bullying Natsuhi? I've tried, but it doesn't really make sense. The only idea I can think of is an attempt to get at Krauss by abusing his wife... though they end up kidnapping him in the progress, so it feels kind of redundant. Ends up not making much sense.
What do you people have?
Well lets list the people who could be involved, and see what we can find.
  • Rosa
  • Maria
  • George
  • Jessica
  • Battler
  • Rudolf
  • Kanon
  • Shannon

Battler, Rudolf and Jessica all use Ore at least once so they could be on the second phone call. Unless you take Battler is not an accomplice as something that applies to all games.

I can't remember if the first caller used Watashi or Boku, but if it's Boku Kanon and George could also be involved.

George or Jessica might want to get their hands on Natsuhi's diaries. And George may have memories of reading them from Episode 2's kakera. Actually using that theory we can include Shannon as a bully too.

Rosa and Maria I'm not sure why exactly they'd be involved in a prank like that, but their in the FT so let's assume they were just playing along.

Genji on the other hand I can't see an immediate reason for. He could always not connect the phone so he doesn't have to be involved.

So the people who wouldn't be in on it or are otherwise ignorant of the plot is very short.
  • Krauss
  • Genji
  • Eva
  • Gohda
  • Hideyoshi
  • Nanjo

Kumasawa is a possibility, but I just have no idea where she is at the time. I've been kind of thinking she might have drugged Krauss and dragged him off somewhere.

EDIT: Actually if you think about it only one person really has to be involved in the phone call so Jessica and George being in the FFT could just be a coincidence. If the second and first caller are both Battler or Rudolf and they're unrelated to the fake death plot (and the "Ore" was a slip) then everyone in FFT are completely innocent in the "bully Natsuhi plot". In that case we just have to figure out why Rudolf or Battler would prank call Natsuhi.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-08 at 20:06.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:14   Link #13475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Come to think of it, has anyone come up with an idea for why everyone is bullying Natsuhi? I've tried, but it doesn't really make sense. The only idea I can think of is an attempt to get at Krauss by abusing his wife... though they end up kidnapping him in the progress, so it feels kind of redundant. Ends up not making much sense.
What do you people have?
The objective of the caller and the objective of the rest of the family are not quite the same thing.

What the family is trying to do is get Natsuhi into a situation where she will have to confess to concealing the death of Kinzo. After she does so, presumably the plan was for the FT victims (and poor kidnapped Krauss) to show up perfectly unharmed and go 'FOOLED YA!'

This goes horribly wrong when Hideyoshi (and presumably the other six) are found actually murdered. Someone (who I suspect to be both the caller AND one of the FT victims) has taken advantage of the situation to get their own revenge on Natsuhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If the second and first caller are both Battler or Rudolf and they're unrelated to the fake death plot (and the "Ore" was a slip) then everyone in FFT are completely innocent in the "bully Natsuhi plot".
'Boku' is the slip, not 'ore'. The caller is trying to make themselves sound more rough and masculine than they actually are.

Given that Natsuhi identifies the caller as sounding 'like a woman or a young boy' George is basically out, leaving us with only Kanon or Jessica.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:24   Link #13476
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
'Boku' is the slip, not 'ore'. The caller is trying to make themselves sound more rough and masculine than they actually are.
This is like the third time I've gotten that mixed up. Jessica doesn't use Boku though. She uses "Ore" and sometimes a messed up "Watashi". Even though I'm bad at remembering I'm certain of that. So she can only be the first caller then. But that means Genji is mistaken about it being from an outside line if it's either Kanon or Jessica that's the first caller.

So if we beleive Battler's reasoning about himself being the caller I guess the first caller can only either be Battler Jessica or Rudolf. Probably Rudolf since it's the outside line and I don't want to blame Battler.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:32   Link #13477
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is like the third time I've gotten that mixed up. Jessica doesn't use Boku though. She uses "Ore" and sometimes a messed up Watashi. Even though I'm bad at remembering I'm certain of that. So she can only be the first caller then. But that means Genji is mistaken about it being from an outside line if it's either Kanon or Jessica that's the first caller.

So if we beleive Battler's reasoning about himself being the caller I guess the first caller can only either be Battler Jessica or Rudolf. Probably Rudolf since it's the outside line and I don't want to blame Battler.
Or perhaps Genji isn't mistaken, but lying to Natsuhi about the call being from an outside line.
Is it too far-fetched to consider him on the "bullying" scheme?
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:34   Link #13478
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Is it too far-fetched to consider him on the "bullying" scheme?
No it's not, but why?

Maybe I should ask Oliver about how the phones would work in this situation. There might be a difference in how you connect to the inside an outside line and Natsuhi might be able to tell the difference.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:48   Link #13479
Raiza Sunozaki
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No it's not, but why?

Maybe I should ask Oliver about how the phones would work in this situation. There might be a difference in how you connect to the inside an outside line and Natsuhi might be able to tell the difference.
I'm certainly no expert on phones, but I'd figure there'd be a difference. Still over a phone line, it's quite easy to act just about anything out, so I'd guess it wouldn't be hard to make it seem like a connecting call from an outside line.
As for why, I don't know. Genji might just be doing it on orders. After all, Battler's now the head of the family. It's not like Genji can disobey him.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:48   Link #13480
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This goes horribly wrong when Hideyoshi (and presumably the other six) are found actually murdered. Someone (who I suspect to be both the caller AND one of the FT victims) has taken advantage of the situation to get their own revenge on Natsuhi.
Actually, there's something strange here too. Is Hideyoshi actually dead? I know Eva is acting all hysterical, but is it actually possible for Hideyoshi to have died? First of all, the whole scene which Natsuhi "sees" seems clearly staged, something in order to pressurize Natsuhi. Second, the fact that Eva wants Hideyoshi's "body" to the parlor should indicate that she's afraid that something would happen to it, and wants to keep an eye on him. Logically, this would mean that the others were murdered for real while they were playing "corpses".

All in all, episode 5 shows many suspicious things concerning Hideyoshi.
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