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Old 2010-07-09, 18:07   Link #13561
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1) What kind of thing cannot be said if there's the "limit" of the repetition of the subject? If you find even a single example I might take in consideration your idea.
I beleive I already said why. If it isn't phrased that way it would be able to be interpreted in a way that dodges the subject matter. I said it's probably said that way so it's not interpreted as being about something else like with the red. Maybe a better way to put it is that the gold truth can't be construed because it's limited in the way it's phrased.

Quote:
2) Why gold needs to be effective against a red? None of the two gold truths we have is clearly structured to be against a red. Actually the first we've seen is totally compatible with the red truth.
It doesn't have to be, but it was in the case your talking about. Dlanor used Knox's 2nd to forbid it in the former case. I thought it was against red in EP6 though because it seems to say it was magic when the red says it's a slight of hand trick.

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Rules about the substance make perfect sense to me. Rules about the form, not so much. And I'm not just talking about the particular rule you have found. Any kind of rule on the form like for example "it must be said in rhyme" looks completely pointless to me.
Well I'm not trying to deliberately make it that way. I'm just commenting on what I found. If you can find a different rule about the subject or the substance I'm willing to hear it. I'm not trying to make it make sense I'm trying to understand how it works from what we have. From what I can tell this rule is probably just something fancy for the phrasing that Ryukishi planned for it because he couldn't think of anything really clever.
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Old 2010-07-09, 18:09   Link #13562
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I thought Gohda and Rosa received the same treatment... as well as Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji later on. Defacing could show that the murderer wants to make the family completely cease to exist... or it could be they couldn't handle the stares of the dead. I dunno.

Also, for some reason, I also thought that the stakes could work very effectively as spearheads. It's said several times that you simply wouldn't be able to get something with so short a handle into someone's skull... so what if the murderer, say, attached the stakes to the end of a candlestick to form a makeshift spear, allowing for easy gougings, and changed the head each time?
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Old 2010-07-09, 18:20   Link #13563
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It doesn't have to be, but it was in the case your talking about. Dlanor used Knox's 2nd to forbid it in the former case. I thought it was against red in EP6 though because it seems to say it was magic when the red says it's a slight of hand trick.
Actually, if you look at the exchange, Battler uses the gold to counter Dlanor's blue truth, not the red truth.

Dlanor: "Can you prove that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's?! No matter how much it resembles him, unless you can prove that it is him, it is possible to claim that it was a substitute corpse from someone ELSE!! Can you show that it was Kinzo's corpse with the truth of HUMANS?! In this case alone, and with the red truth specifically, no counterargument will be effective...!!"

Battler: "In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's."

Dlanor: "And that itself suggests the possibility that this corpse is a body double! This unidentifiable corpse cannot serve as proof of Kinzo's death...!!"

Erika: "......Checkmate...!! My theory does not waver!!"

And then comes the gold.
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Old 2010-07-09, 18:25   Link #13564
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This is why you shouldn't let witches make up rules as they go along.
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Old 2010-07-09, 18:31   Link #13565
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Actually, if you look at the exchange, Battler uses the gold to counter Dlanor's blue truth, not the red truth.

Dlanor: "Can you prove that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's?! No matter how much it resembles him, unless you can prove that it is him, it is possible to claim that it was a substitute corpse from someone ELSE!! Can you show that it was Kinzo's corpse with the truth of HUMANS?! In this case alone, and with the red truth specifically, no counterargument will be effective...!!"

Battler: "In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's."

Dlanor: "And that itself suggests the possibility that this corpse is a body double! This unidentifiable corpse cannot serve as proof of Kinzo's death...!!"

Erika: "......Checkmate...!! My theory does not waver!!"

And then comes the gold.
Yeah I know that it was Dlanor's blue that sealed it not the red. I guess blue and gold have bad affinity with each other for some reason. Somehow I got that confused along the way. I still think it's stronger when blue and red have been used before it though.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-09 at 18:54.
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Old 2010-07-09, 19:18   Link #13566
Verg Avesta
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Speaking of gold truth, could it be that's it's supposed to be some kind of "constants". In other words, things that have to be true or otherwise the Rokkenjima Incident would not be possible. For example, when it concerns Kinzo's corpse, Battler has "understood" that without Kinzo dead, it is not possible for the whole Incident to happen, and thus it has to be true. If the corpse would not be Kinzo's, Kinzo would have to be alive, and so the "game" could not exist in the first place. It certainly would fit with the requirement of having to "understand the innermost depths of Beato's game".

Just a thought, though.
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Old 2010-07-09, 19:27   Link #13567
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Battler: "In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's."

Dlanor: "And that itself suggests the possibility that this corpse is a body double! This unidentifiable corpse cannot serve as proof of Kinzo's death...!!"

Erika: "......Checkmate...!! My theory does not waver!!"

And then comes the gold.
Wait a second... remember how we were talking about how if there no clues then that in of itself is evidence? For example, as Dlanor posits, there could be a chance that the body is faked and it's not really Kinzo.

But we were talking about theories like this; there's no clues in EP1-4 or even 5 and 6 about body doubles or something funky with Kinzo like having a twin. In fact we have clues about him being uniquely identified by the polydactyly.


So we already can counter Dlanor's theory on this board by the lack of clues to support her theory. Maybe that's what the Gold Truth is? It's not just that we the readers, or the meta-characters have subjectively observed and decided it is Kinzo's body... it's that PLUS that we have not found any evidence to the contrary. And we will NEVER find clues to the contrary. And this is what the Gamemaster can declare, or someone who knows the truth and what the Gamemaster is thinking. "Yah, there's no way we're going to go down that route."

So.. Gold represents a subjective view and then seals off the possibility of counter arguments from then on due to the observed lack of clues?

EDIT: As my friend so aptly put it:
"Gold is used to defeat theories that have no facts to back it up."

Take that, Dlanor! <WHACK!>
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Old 2010-07-09, 23:42   Link #13568
ElderKain
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Arrow

After seeing to the End of Ep5, I thought Battler was the Culprit, lol, but there is the
Spoiler for :

So that threw that idea out of the water, lol.

But like Red Truth, Golden Truth is suppose to be more effective, but It contradicts the earlier statements and can even bypass Knox's 2nd.
If some rules can be Bypassed, that means that earlier red truth statements can be voided.

Spoiler for :

But...
Spoiler for :


Lots of contradictions in the plot and with the magic being shown as well *Disregarding the cat box theory and such* It's hard to tell what is real or not, because too many disguised characters which makes the 18 people on the island look like a hell of a lot more to the point where you can't tell at all, lol.
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Old 2010-07-10, 00:55   Link #13569
Almazluverdis3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElderKain View Post
After seeing to the End of Ep5, I thought Battler was the Culprit, lol, but there is the
Spoiler for :

So that threw that idea out of the water, lol.

But like Red Truth, Golden Truth is suppose to be more effective, but It contradicts the earlier statements and can even bypass Knox's 2nd.
If some rules can be Bypassed, that means that earlier red truth statements can be voided.

Spoiler for :

But...
Spoiler for :


Lots of contradictions in the plot and with the magic being shown as well *Disregarding the cat box theory and such* It's hard to tell what is real or not, because too many disguised characters which makes the 18 people on the island look like a hell of a lot more to the point where you can't tell at all, lol.
Eva survived in EP3. EP2, no one survived.
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Old 2010-07-10, 08:07   Link #13570
Oliver
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Short, profound, abstract thought.

We are usually operating on the assumption that scenes where Battler is present to observe them are presented as he sees them. This does not always produce good results, but if we cast that off we got nothing to step on.

But let's try again from a different direction. What if an objectively observing narrator exists, but it is someone else?

That is, which other charactera aren't seen when anything magical happens, survive for long enough, and can be believed to have a very factual point of view?
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Old 2010-07-10, 08:37   Link #13571
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So.. Gold represents a subjective view and then seals off the possibility of counter arguments from then on due to the observed lack of clues?

EDIT: As my friend so aptly put it:
"Gold is used to defeat theories that have no facts to back it up."

Take that, Dlanor! <WHACK!>
That is my take somehow, but I think you can state in gold only what you truly believe in. If someone doesn't have a red to counter that, the gold will prevail over any other theory.

Basically you can state that The invisible pink unicorn exists! and there would be no possible way to counter it.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:29   Link #13572
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That is my take somehow, but I think you can state in gold only what you truly believe in. If someone doesn't have a red to counter that, the gold will prevail over any other theory.

Basically you can state that The invisible pink unicorn exists! and there would be no possible way to counter it.
Yeah I don't disagree that you can only say something you truly beleive in. I also think you have to be talking about something that is being talked about at the moment. Your wrong though It would be so easy to counter that. All I have to say is It's just a normal white horse that your dressed up to look like a a unicorn! and I've completely defeated you. because even though your saying unicorn exists the truth is that's only an opinion and it has no basis in fact.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:35   Link #13573
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You can't use a red like that. It's false. You can't even see the unicorn because it's invisible.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:36   Link #13574
Judoh
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You don't know that anymore than I do sorry...

And I'm pretty sure I can do that if we can call a magic tea cup a sleight of hand trick.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:44   Link #13575
Jan-Poo
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Look red has precise rules. You can't use red unless you have 100% certainty that it's true.

Of course I can't say that in red that invisible pink unicorn is real, in fact I used gold.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:46   Link #13576
Judoh
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I can say it in red if there is a real white horse being used!. It's hypothetical anyway so there is no real problem here. You also wouldn't be able to use that gold unless a unicorn was seen. You can't just claim something exists unless it was presented in the story. None of the texts work out of context from the story.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:49   Link #13577
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Then I guess you don't know the invisible pink unicorn
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:55   Link #13578
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then I guess you don't know the invisible pink unicorn
Again unless it appear in the story you wouldn't even be able to make a gold text about it because it's out of context. None of the texts would even work hypothetically without a context.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:55   Link #13579
CainSonozaki
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i think the red Battler uses In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's. might be a hint. I cant quite remember what "objective" means but isnt it what someone sees or something like that?(shoulda paid more attention in high school english) I took that to mean that if they were to take the corpse off Rokenjima there would be an objective way to show its Kinzo's thus Gold truth is Stronger. In ep 6 obviously it isnt magic, but maybe if you were to show the trick to someone at random theyd think its magic (brain fails to give me the right words to explain this) thus Gold is weaker.
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Old 2010-07-10, 09:59   Link #13580
Judoh
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Actually that suggests it can be proven objectively before the island is closed off too. If you want to get really technical. It can also be proven subjectively while it's closed off. Which is our basis for calling the gold a subjective truth.
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