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Old 2010-07-10, 21:51   Link #13621
Judoh
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For these reasons I get the impression that if the sin is against Shannon she's not the person who was affected by it as much as it was to the people around her. That's why before I suggested Maria could be the person he sinned against instead because it would creates more of a butterfly affect than it would with her. Which allows the sin to affect just about everybody.

I like being fair, and while it is advantageous for me to have the sin be against Shannon (for George culprit reasons). I don't see that as the only option, and I'd find it boring if I was right about that because it's almost too easy.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:10   Link #13622
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I'm sorry, but I cannot deny the possibility that Shannon and Battler did have romantic relations as kids.

Spoiler for EP6:


But yes, I agree, George is a strong contender for "mastermind."
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:33   Link #13623
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Not to mention that a few pages ago we were talking about how the reds about Beato's motive seem to imply that she's being manipulated by somebody, and who better to manipulate her than George?

...okay, this is crazy, but I've been meaning to post this for a while. I'm starting to think that the butterfly brooch might have something to do with discovering the gold or perhaps even Beatrice's lineage (in other words, perhaps it's kind of like a complement to the Ushiromiya head ring). Anybody else think this is possible? That would explain Kinzo's treatment of Kanon and Shannon, and if we assume that the couples will be 100% torn apart without a parentally approved marriage (as much as Ange argued against this - Hachijou did say something about "love being very different from marriage"), it might at least partially explain the love duel, too.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:34   Link #13624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
At the ending of EP 6 it is said in narration that Bern is using the Beatrice piece and putting her in the black queen's position. In that same narration it said that the piece was a 'garbage piece' that could become any piece it wanted. The only piece that can become another piece is the pawn, when placed on the other person's side of the board.

So if Shannon is the Beatrice piece for example then Shannon can only be an accomplice, most likely a forced one. Sorry, but I can't really care much for a culprit who kills everyone just because Battler made a half-hearted promise.

Seriously was she expecting him to actually come with a white horse? Rich or not, he was twelve.
Well, you're assuming that that's the only reason Shannon could have had for killing people (out of hatred). If all the hinting in EP6 about Shkanontrice can be believed, at least the furniture for Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice believe in the Golden Land, and that everyone will be revived at the end of two days. That doesn't sound like the attitude of someone who wants everyone to die. Pretty much the opposite, actually.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:37   Link #13625
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, you're assuming that that's the only reason Shannon could have had for killing people (out of hatred). If all the hinting in EP6 about Shkanontrice can be believed, at least the furniture for Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice believe in the Golden Land, and that everyone will be revived at the end of two days. That doesn't sound like the attitude of someone who wants everyone to die. Pretty much the opposite, actually.
Reminds me a lot of Maria. Everyone is dying but she thinks that everything will be okay regardless.

Even so, I still stand by my stance that Shannon is at most an accomplice being used. Whether or not she realizes this is to be seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I'm sorry, but I cannot deny the possibility that Shannon and Battler did have romantic relations as kids.

Spoiler for EP6:
Except that it was at most a crush. When Battler found out in EP 3 that Shannon was dating George now he wasn't all too crushed about it and even supports their relationship if anything. Shannon too has moved on, if what she says in EP 6 is true.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:47   Link #13626
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Reminds me a lot of Maria. Everyone is dying but she thinks that everything will be okay regardless.

Even so, I still stand by my stance that Shannon is at most an accomplice being used. Whether or not she realizes this is to be seen.
Heh, it's been a while since we've agreed, at least on that much.

I think the bomb wipes out everyone in pretty much each game (and someone other than Beatrice did that), so it doesn't really matter what happens before that. That might explain why meta-Beatrice performed all those murders to show Battler: the victims would just die anyway, so the manner in which they died wasn't so important. So, in the first few games, Beatrice made her piece 'the queen', and responsible for the murders that would have happened anyways. Presumably, if she didn't do this, the story would just suddenly end at the second midnight all the time and Battler would never figure out what's going on.

In EP5-6, whichever piece 'Beatrice' was, it couldn't have been what I'd call a queen. In EP5 and EP6, the fake murders have Battler's signature on them, and the real murders couldn't possibly have been Beatrice unless she has an even more psycho personality or is Erika. This makes sense, since the player for Beatrice wasn't active, and as Erika shows us, players can control their own pieces best.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:48   Link #13627
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, you're assuming that that's the only reason Shannon could have had for killing people (out of hatred). If all the hinting in EP6 about Shkanontrice can be believed, at least the furniture for Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice believe in the Golden Land, and that everyone will be revived at the end of two days. That doesn't sound like the attitude of someone who wants everyone to die. Pretty much the opposite, actually.
However when Zepar and Furfur mention the golden land and say that it's not of this world George says:


"I wouldn't want that. ......Love has meaning because we find it in this world. I could never support a sad lovers' double suicide, where they are only united after death. ......I'll stick to my love in life. I won't lose to anyone."


Shannon and Kanon are clearly listening to him, but none of them says "hey you got it all wrong!"

That's why I believe that Shannon and kanon or shkanon aren't really fooling themselves in believing that they will be really resurrected, rather they believe in some kind of afterlife.
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Old 2010-07-10, 23:54   Link #13628
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None of which really makes them sympathetic.

Unless they're not the culprits.
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Old 2010-07-11, 00:07   Link #13629
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
None of which really makes them sympathetic.

Unless they're not the culprits.
Hmm, but what if we turn it around and say they don't have to be the culprits? As in, their horribly misguided beliefs can lead them to commit an act of pure evil unless someone saves them from themselves first.

If they get saved before killing anyone, then you aren't forced to forgive them for the mistake of murdering all those people (and if anything, Kinzo and friends would be even more to blame for indoctrinating/creating the environment for the poor girl with all this stuff). The style is different, but it's essentially the same pattern as Onikakushi, where Keiichi became a murderer because of misguided beliefs. Can Keiichi be forgiven for killing his two closest friends for absolutely no real reason? Tricky. Does that mean Keiichi is an unsympathetic guy in other games? I don't think so.
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Old 2010-07-11, 00:19   Link #13630
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If the killer can be stopped in the sense that they can be reasoned with, then sure, anyone can be forgiven. Although at the same time I feel like what they would have done shouldn't be ignored. Depending on how you look at it, they actually have already done it.

Of course, the notion that there are mutually exclusive culprits in some fragments could, arguably, mean that everyone is simulatenously innocent and guilty, which puts a metaphorical kibosh on "what you would have done."
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Old 2010-07-11, 00:37   Link #13631
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the killer can be stopped in the sense that they can be reasoned with, then sure, anyone can be forgiven. Although at the same time I feel like what they would have done shouldn't be ignored. Depending on how you look at it, they actually have already done it.
You can argue that, but it totally goes against the When They Cry worldview from Higurashi. Certain crimes tend to be more common among poorer people in some areas. So, if your family went broke instead of making it big, you would, statistically speaking, be more likely to commit these crimes. Are you any worse of a person just because your family is less affluent? I definitely wouldn't make that statement.

If Shannon (or whoever) had been raised in any place less crazy than Rokkenjima, I seriously, seriously doubt that she'd ever have murdered anyone, misguided or not. If she does kill, it's as a direct product of her environment. That doesn't make her any less guilty, in my eyes, but it does mean she can be saved.
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Old 2010-07-11, 00:45   Link #13632
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The only real conditions for "saving" the culprit are how redeemable they are (which depends on their motive and how committed they are) and how forgiving people feel.

But really, there are a lot more people than just the culprit who need to shape up.
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Old 2010-07-11, 02:07   Link #13633
Raiza Sunozaki
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Bloody hell. Reading through Episode 6, I'm noticing there are a huge number of obvious clues to solving Umineko that Ryuukishi practically throws in our faces. Episode 5 was all about showing us some of the tricks the culprit and other schemers used throughout the games, Episode 6 seems to be about telling us what to look for to find the answers.
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Old 2010-07-11, 03:45   Link #13634
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Just writing out some random theories and need a place to keep them. Feel free to comment with challenges so I can revise it.

Theory on the Two Battlers
------------------------------------
Battler1 is Rudolf's son Battler, born from Kyrie and Rudolf.
Battler2 is Rudolf's daughter Jessica, born from Asumu and Rudolf.

Rudolf had promised Kyrie that their child would be raised with the Family Name. Natsuhi did not have an heir and needed a daughter. When Rudolf brought the problem to the attention of Kinzo, Kinzo had Natsuhi agree to raise the child-- both her and her husband wanted a child but they would not be able to conceive.

EP5 white text confession was, as Battler said, useless. There are several interpretations of what happened to the Servant That Fell From The Cliff. The one in Lambda Delta's game was a hint, but not an actual answer. Ep2 may be closer to the truth.

So:

Rudolph then without the knowledge of Asumu, passes off their daughter into Natsuhi and Krauss.
Rudolph then without the knowledge of Kyrie, passes off Battler to Asumu, and raises Battler as his own son.

Rudolph worries that he will be killed as he is the only person outside of Kinzo, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Kinzo that knew the truth. This is because of the Inheritance. This is also why Natsuhi is identified in Ep6 as one of Battler's enemies by Beatrice.

This is further supported by the next theory.

Theory on the Closed Room Solution
--------------------------------------
1. Battler is in the Closed Room. (Battler is defined as Battler1, The son of Rudolph and Kyrie and Battler2, the daughter of Rudolph and Asumu, Jessica.) Thus there are two people in the room.

2. Two Explanations of Kanon's "escape"

2a. Kanon's real and actual name is shared or can be read using the same characters as one of the other victims of the first twilight. (There are tons of different spellings for the names. It's possible some permutation of the name Kanon offered is the same as some permutation of the name of one of the victim). Thus he's already in a room that he can walk out of any time.

2b. Kanon's real and actual name is Sayo. Shannon and Kanon are, in fact, the same person. Thus when we have it confirmed that Shannon is in escapable room, she just escapes and there are no problems.

What is material is: By this trick, Kanon is either inside the mansion already and just leaves one of the sealed rooms, or he is Shannon and is already in a room that is not confirmed sealed.

3. Erika is Not An Actual Person or a Personality of Jessica (Battler2).

Thus, Erika = 1 or 0 people (body) Kanon=1 person (body) Battler = 2 people (bodies).

So we get.

Two people are in the room to begin with:
Battler1
Jessica(Battler2)
Kanon enters the room and breaks the chain.
Battler1 and Kanon leave the room.
Battler2 resets the chain and hides somewhere that is not the closet.

Thus Kanon disappears by "magic" and is no longer in the room. Neither is one of the Battlers. Jessica(Battler2) remains in the room, Trollface set to Maximum.

Solved.

Theories on Shannon and Kanon (In Progress)
-------------------------------------------
They are the Same Person.

This is the main point of Episode 6. But there's evidence everywhere.

Kanon's body is not found in EP2 or EP4 but he is confirmed dead. Shannon is also dead when this is confirmed.
In EP1, Shannon uses the 1st twilight to publicly disappear. After this is accomplished she leaves the shed.
In EP3, Kanon's body is moved out of the Chapel after, redressed by George as Kanon, and her corpse is presented once again.

EP6 has it as the main theme.

Sayo is forced to make a choice between three apparent options.

Choice 1. Choose to reject George's proposal and remain with her best friend, Jessica, on the Island. They will keep up the Shanon and Kanon charade for as long as possible. It's a great weight and burden on her-- a lie created for amusement that went too far.

Choice 2. Choose to accept George's proposal and leave the island. This means Kanon will no longer exist as the charade is no longer sustainable. This gets complicated and very ugly however (See my later Culprit Theory).

Choice 3. Reject George's proposal and take her chances with Battler. This may have blindsided you, but beyond the question of "Why only Jessica x Kanon or George x Shannon work?", you should also ask: "Why, in that same set of relationships, can only one of these relationships work?"

The answer is, because Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice are all the same person, Sayo. (I am aware that I am not breaking new ground here.)

In this theory, Sayo was in love with Battler. He said what he wanted in a woman and Sayo created Beatrice in that image. This is why Beatrice was "born" to love Battler.

She waited for Battler, but he never came. He returns 6 years later. And by then, events are set in motion that make their love impossible. Namely, she becomes involved in the conspiracy to murder.

Beatrice, which she created out of a love of Battler, becomes the method by which

Theories on The Identity of the Culprits (In progress)
-----------------------------------------------

Theory 1. There is not one Culprit but many and they are not Unified.

This means that finding any one person to blame as the full mastermind of the operation is misguided. It's better to just group them into teams with subdivisions.
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Old 2010-07-11, 06:34   Link #13635
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I would agree Sayo had had some feeling for Battler six years ago, which created the Moetrice, but it was now so little compared to her love to George. Hence Moetrice was just a bystander during the battle between Shannon and Kanon (which represented Sayo's love to George (romantic) and Jessica & Kanon (friendship, Shkanon applies here) )
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Old 2010-07-11, 07:26   Link #13636
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Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
2b. Kanon's real and actual name is Sayo. Shannon and Kanon are, in fact, the same person. Thus when we have it confirmed that Shannon is in escapable room, she just escapes and there are no problems.
I'd have to think that Erika's IQ is below 100.
Basically "Kanon's name is the same as the name of someone in the next room over" is what she said.

Now if Beatrice tricked Erika into thinking that her reasoning was wrong while it was substantially right with just an incredibly minor variation that could be adjusted easily, then wow... I won't really say it was Beatrice's genial move. More like Erika's stupidity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
Two people are in the room to begin with:
Battler1
Jessica(Battler2)
Kanon enters the room and breaks the chain.
Battler1 and Kanon leave the room.
Battler2 resets the chain and hides somewhere that is not the closet.
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names.

Unless Kanon is Battler, he never left the room.


@chronotrig
I would only justify those under a strong purupurupikopyo effect that doesn't let them reason anymore. In that case even in a normal tribunal they could plead insanity or prove an objective lack of capacity to act by their own accord.

Now I don't know how much the anime manipulated the truth, but the way things were presented in DEEN's version of Tatarigoroshi-hen, Keiichi was definitely guilty. I don't hate him, but I can't really excuse him. What he did was absolutely wrong.

In the same way in the episode when they found that Rena killed a woman they were all accountable as murder accomplices for hiding the body.
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Old 2010-07-11, 07:38   Link #13637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now I don't know how much the anime manipulated the truth, but the way things were presented in DEEN's version of Tatarigoroshi-hen, Keiichi was definitely guilty. I don't hate him, but I can't really excuse him. What he did was absolutely wrong.
The anime certainly manipulated it big time, because Keiichi went insane, borderline L5 already when Satoko has her mental breakdown at school.
It is a wonder how Deen could have missed the killer brainstorming after Keiichi snapped completely.

So no, Keiichi would hardly be considered as guilty, considering he wasn't thinking right at all (while the anime certainly has shown him almost too calm about it).
Quote:
In the same way in the episode when they found that Rena killed a woman they were all accountable as murder accomplices for hiding the body.
Hiding evidence doesn't mean you are an accomplice to the said act of murder. Hiding evidence has a complete different type of "criminal charge".
And it isn't like they condone what Rena has done, but considering their bond and the distress, it does fit the theme of the When They Cry series, albeit certainly on a bitter note for Tsumihoroboshi.
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Old 2010-07-11, 08:47   Link #13638
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Hiding evidence of a crime is however as grave if not more grave than being an accomplice of a crime, considering that the definition of "accomplice" is still valid as long as you assist the criminal even if you don't do anything criminal yourself. Hiding evidence however is by itself a criminal act.
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Old 2010-07-11, 08:56   Link #13639
chronotrig
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Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:
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Old 2010-07-11, 09:01   Link #13640
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Paranoia brought to such a level is considered insanity at least on the DSM V it figures as a mental disorder.
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