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Old 2010-07-11, 14:55   Link #13661
crazysjd89
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I'm going to post a stupid little theory I thought of.

Spoiler for Episode 6:
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Old 2010-07-11, 15:08   Link #13662
Judoh
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I think there are an equal amount of hints about Jessica being the other Battler along the same lines, whom Kanon can rescue intentionally if that's the case. Of course the Jessica of 6 years ago was called "bossy" by Battler so I can't deny Erika is a younger version of her or something.
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Old 2010-07-11, 15:12   Link #13663
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Well, originally it was just Beatrice, but then I found some hints that might lead to Jessica, so I put her name in there. It can technically work for any of the other people on the island, it's just that I saw it more likely to be Jessica.

But you're right. The hints pointing at Jessica are very small and very circumstancal.
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Old 2010-07-11, 15:15   Link #13664
Judoh
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Originally Posted by crazysjd89 View Post
But you're right. The hints pointing at Jessica are very small and very circumstancal.
I was definitely not calling the hints small. The hints for Jessica having some importance like this is actually plentiful enough to be convincing to me. What I was saying was that Jessica = Asumu's Battler and Jessica = Erika have equal value as a narrative in Ep6 and they follow the same logic in your theory.
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Old 2010-07-11, 16:32   Link #13665
Solicitous_Beatrice
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I’ve never posted on here before, but I’ve noticed no one’s mentioned anything about the information that Fufur and Zepar mentioned when Shannon and Kanon were about to start their duel.

Spoiler for Kyrie:



Then again, I’m probably wrong.D:
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Old 2010-07-11, 17:41   Link #13666
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Solicitous_Beatrice View Post
I’ve never posted on here before, but I’ve noticed no one’s mentioned anything about the information that Fufur and Zepar mentioned when Shannon and Kanon were about to start their duel.

Spoiler for Kyrie:



Then again, I’m probably wrong.D:
You haven't been looking hard enough. We've covered it several times, though you're the only one I remember who linked it to Kyrie.
Still, I don't think Kyrie has the ability to kill off several people on Rokkenjima, mainly Rudolf. There's never any evidence that Kyrie would have any inclination to kill Rudolf. She has forgiven him for being such a womanizing dick in his youth, after all. Same goes for Battler. With Asumu dead, she no longer has any reason full on loathe Battler, though I do think she has mentioned that sometimes he reminds her too much of Asumu.
Kyrie, to me, seems completely motiveless, aside from why you could pin it on all the other adults (monetary needs, selecting their child as the next head, etc.). She's a very calm and rational person, and she has nothing to gain from murdering a family such as the Ushiromiya.

Unrelated, but after reading Episode 6, I've been able to clear my head a bit and think seriously about somethings. I think we've been looking at this a bit the wrong way. It's a bit hypocritical after what I wrote above, but I get the feeling solving the usual riddles of the mystery genre: the who dunnit, how dunnit and why dunnit, isn't the main theme of Umineko. After all, like Erika said, there are an infinite number of truths for this story, each one probably pinning the blame of the culprit on a different assortment of characters and scenarios.
More important to me, from reading Episode 6, is understanding Beato, who she is and why she acted the way she did. Thanks to Battler's Sin, Moetrice and Ange, we've got a somewhat loose answer to these questions, but there's still somethings that don't allow us to completely know the answer, as well as important details which still evade us.
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Old 2010-07-11, 17:53   Link #13667
LuckySovietStar
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TL;DR: The murders are basically a delusion(or well thought out plan) of the envious Kyrie who began to fantasize about the murder of the Ushiromiya family because of Battler’s birth, his rejection of accepting her as a step-mother, Rudolf cheating on her and choosing Asumu over her, and Battler coming back into Kyrie’s life.
Hm, then Battler's sin is "Not calling Kyrie mother"? Well...that conversation "what kind of girl I prefer" sounded like something they would talk about.
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Old 2010-07-11, 18:38   Link #13668
Solicitous_Beatrice
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Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar View Post
Hm, then Battler's sin is "Not calling Kyrie mother"? Well...that conversation "what kind of girl I prefer" sounded like something they would talk about.
No. His sin is rejecting her as a step-parent while being ignorant of the past(even though he was a child at the time. Even adults can hold grudges against children)

From what I understand, Battler was so upset that Rudolf re-married so quickly, that he seemed to dislike Kyrie and rejected her as a step-mother. From personal experience, this sometimes really bothers a step-parent if they're rejected so quickly and if the step-parent tries to be friendly with the step-child that they're not too fond of. Kyrie comes across to me as the type of person to pin up a negative emotion until it's too late, but because of her cool, rational, and intelligent personality, she could effective carry out her plans.

I'm only assuming she's the most hurt by Battler's existence because she thinks he's Asumu's child, not to mention Kyrie seems to still have a major grudge/envy against her even after she won Rudolf. Some people can be crazier than hell but have a nice, calm composure. *shrugs*

But I'm probably wrong and everything that happens on the island is actually magic .
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Old 2010-07-11, 18:52   Link #13669
LuckySovietStar
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His sin is rejecting her as a step-parent
Well I just tried to say it in more poetic way, sorry . I know what you are talking about, I have personal experience in this matter too.
So, without rejecting her, there is a chance that Kyrie would stop accumulating all these negative emotions-->not end up crazy enough to kill, yes?
I wonder, is acting towards Battler friendly "magic" on her part?
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Old 2010-07-11, 18:53   Link #13670
DgBarca
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Wait wait waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
EP5 Red Truth :
'Kinzo doesn't exist'
Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!
<= My face right now
Does the word "exist" is the same in both sentences in the Japanese version ?

Natshui's room doesn't exist or what ?
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Old 2010-07-11, 18:58   Link #13671
Renall
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I'm pretty sure her room exists. Remember, "Kinzo" in ep5 is constructed to mean "a living Kinzo." A living Kinzo does not exist anywhere, because he isn't alive.
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Old 2010-07-11, 18:59   Link #13672
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No, you didn't understand the situation.
The thing is Erika and Bern used a false logic contrapositive.
They know Kinzo is dead, but for the sake of cornering Natsuhi in her lie, they started from the premise that Kinzo is alive.

Thus, they used the red to make look like Kinzo has to be in Natsuhi's room.
The following red,Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room! , doesn't mean that Kinzo exist in Natsuhi's room.
It is like saying: there are 3 rooms, there is no chair in room 1. there is no chair in room 2. By this, you think there is a chair in room 3. But that's an assumption only if you are "certain" there is at least a chair in one of the 3 rooms.

Back in this situation, because of the red, Natsuhi has no choice but to admit Kinzo is dead.
Even if Bern and Erika know it is wrong, they are holding the red truth themselves. Thus, they do not have any obligation to reveal the "whole" truth.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:02   Link #13673
DgBarca
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
No, you didn't understand the situation.
The thing is Erika and Bern used a false logic contrapositive.
They know Kinzo is dead, but for the sake of cornering Natsuhi in her lie, they started from the premise that Kinzo is alive.

Thus, they used the red to make look like Kinzo has to be in Natsuhi's room.
The following red,Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room! , doesn't mean that Kinzo exist in Natsuhi's room.
It is like saying: there are 3 rooms, there is no chair in room 1. there is no chair in room 2. By this, you think there is a chair in room 3. But that's an assumption only if you are "certain" there is at least a chair in one of the 3 rooms.

Back in this situation, because of the red, Natsuhi has no choice but to admit Kinzo is dead.
Even if Bern and Erika know it is wrong, they are holding the red truth themselves. Thus, they do not have any obligation to reveal the "whole" truth.
So...for EP6...Kanon does not exist inside the guest room....could it be that Kanon just...died ?
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:04   Link #13674
Renall
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Well, he had to enter the guest room, but after that yes, he can die and thus cease to be in the room without leaving. That's one theory.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:06   Link #13675
DgBarca
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, he had to enter the guest room, but after that yes, he can die and thus cease to be in the room without leaving. That's one theory.
Then Erika could have killed Kanon. As she didn't have her detective authority at that point, her PoV is not objective.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:10   Link #13676
LuckySovietStar
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But his body would be still here. And she said something like, talk about location of bodies.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:12   Link #13677
Renall
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But Beatrice didn't. And Beatrice is the one stating the red.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:12   Link #13678
Solicitous_Beatrice
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Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar View Post
Well I just tried to say it in more poetic way, sorry . I know what you are talking about, I have personal experience in this matter too.
So, without rejecting her, there is a chance that Kyrie would stop accumulating all these negative emotions-->not end up crazy enough to kill, yes?
I wonder, is acting towards Battler friendly "magic" on her part?
It's alright. I just wanted to make sure my point was clear.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm only drawing this from that one scene in Dawn when Kyrie tells Jessica about her past with Rudolf and her envy of Asumu. Kyrie seemed to feel intensely about her past even though she "won" Rudolf in the end. I know from personal experience that even "winning" in the end doesn't remove those feelings of resentment from the competition in an emotional fight.

Actually, I don't think her negative feelings would stop accumulating, but the rate that the feelings built up might have slowed down a little bit. I just think the straw that broke the camel's back was Battler's return from his grandparents house to live with Kyrie and Rudolf.

It'd be like:

Losing the the guy you liked to some stupid airhead> then getting the guy you wanted after years of waiting but he has a child that reminds you of that girl you lost him to at first> that kid doesn't like you because you got married too quickly> You begin to resent the brat because it's "her" child> The child rejects you and doesn't even try to like you> The child leaves and you're happy> You start your own family and are happy> that bratty child comes back and reminds you of the pain of trying to get the guy you wanted.


I wouldn't say it's magic that Kyrie and Battler are friendly towards each other, I think Kyrie just trying to be nice to him because he doesn't know the past well, but still resents him because he reminds her of Asumu.

:x I wish there was a shorter way to explain it.

I just want to believe that everything that happens in the game is actually magic.;-;
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:24   Link #13679
DgBarca
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Ho...did anyone notice that Ange says that "Beato died at the end" ?
And the ????...

Beatrice died just after the wedding ? How manly for Battler

How...and...for Shkanon...I hate to admit it...but all those hint are awful...But...does anyone solved Maria last "riddle" on the book ? The thing with glasses and money...
If the solution is to stack glasses...then super Shkanon hint of hell.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:32   Link #13680
Jan-Poo
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Yes it was solved it's easy. You just stack the glasses.

But what about Beato? I don't remember that. Unless you are talking about the start of the episode, which doesn't really tell us anything new


BTW how come no one ever commented the phone call between Amakusa and Okonogi?
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