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Old 2010-07-11, 19:38   Link #13681
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
BTW how come no one ever commented the phone call between Amakusa and Okonogi?
Probably because it is a "sub plot".
But that phone call pretty much confirms back from episode 4:
Amakusa sniped Kasumi and her cronies. However, the following point depends of... your love for amakusa I guess:
1) Amakusa flately killed Ange in the process, per Okonogi request
2) Amakusa thought he killed all of them, but one of Kasumi's goon was half dead and killed Ange before passing away.
3) Amakusa fled with Ange but they got catched up by Okonogi/Sumadera and Ange died
4) Ange didn't die on 1998

I don't think 1) is possible, but rather 3) considering how Amakusa was shown, and how he was feigning ignorance with Okonogi.
That said, the ending scroll isn't really trustworthy (especially the -dead- part, if we factor Kinzo etc).

That being said, we just know that Okonogi made a little alliance with the Sumadera and backstabbed everyone.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:41   Link #13682
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But Beatrice didn't. And Beatrice is the one stating the red.
True. Also, when you die, you cease to exist, apparently. Or Kinzo is just so special.

Quote:
Yes it was solved it's easy. You just stack the glasses.
Nobody said that coins are indestructible like cheese, and that half of coin is not a coin.
And I too dont remember anything about Beato dying +_-...

@ Solicitous_Beatrice
All that Kyrie talk makes me want to reread that one phone call from EP4.
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:41   Link #13683
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We know Okonogi wanted Kasumi killed, that the Sumaderas were okay with Amakusa killing her, and that Ange was desired dead as well. Okonogi suggested that if Amakusa were to delay a little bit, the Sumadera goons might kill Ange for him so he wouldn't have to shoot her.

As Klash said, the question is, what really did happen? The only person who can report on that scene is Amakusa himself if everyone else died, or is believed to have died. Therefore, how do we know what we saw in ep4 was the truth?
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:42   Link #13684
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes it was solved it's easy. You just stack the glasses.

But what about Beato? I don't remember that. Unless you are talking about the start of the episode, which doesn't really tell us anything new


BTW how come no one ever commented the phone call between Amakusa and Okonogi?
Yeah, it could something like that look :
Spoiler for pic:


For the phone call...yeah...it's...suspicious...LIKE HELL IT ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Ho I have been Erika-ed
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:48   Link #13685
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I must say I never really trusted Okonogi, despite all his talking about love, someone with that face can't be a good guy.

However I agree about Amakusa. I don't really have the feeling that he'd really kill Ange. Not because he's got moral problems, he is a hit man after all. Well maybe he is the kind of assassin that doesn't want to kill women and children like Leon, but the main issue is probably that he likes Ange. There are many hints of that including the TIPS.

Maybe I'm wrong but... I still think it's a more likely scenario that Amakusa would not kill Ange rather than Ange would manage to defy his attempts at murdering her. And Ange must survive somehow in the end.

Os for the ending scroll, it might be explained if Amakusa decided to still tell Okonogi that he killed Ange (which would be a smart move). So for the world Ange died.

@DGbarca

ah that part... I wonder what does that mean exactly...
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Old 2010-07-11, 19:57   Link #13686
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If I were Ange, I'd want to appear dead. Just because Kasumi isn't after me anymore doesn't mean I really want this kind of pressure. Sure, Okonogi winds up with all the money, but who cares? That never helped Eva anyway.
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Old 2010-07-11, 20:05   Link #13687
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And if Ange sticks with Amakusa, its not like she is going to live in poverty or anything.
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Old 2010-07-11, 20:16   Link #13688
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Actually I'm more of the idea that Ange would organize a counter attack for the joy of Amakusa.
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Old 2010-07-11, 21:07   Link #13689
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Yeah, Amakusa's phone call at the end got me a little suspicious as well. And that little bit of possible insight into his mind showed he didn't exactly view Ange with a lot of kindness... or at least, that's how I interpreted it.
As much as I like Amakusa's character, I can't shake the feeling that he either is the one who kills her or knowingly lets her die.
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Old 2010-07-12, 00:43   Link #13690
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Why couldn't it be that he's just putting up a front for Okonogi (who evidently does want her dead)? It's clear he's received a good firearm, and we've already seen that on Rokkenjima a bunch of the Sumadera crew are killed "by magic". While the phone call looks sketchy, there are still two possibilities: he's lying to Ange and is in on Okonogi's plan, or he plans to screw up Okonogi's plan but pretend to be following it so that Ange can escape.

Given the theme of trust in this series, my chips are on the latter.
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Old 2010-07-12, 02:11   Link #13691
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Sorry to interrupt, but after finishing ep 6, there were some parts I couldn't get; mainly the last part. Does the last part mean that Bern has reached the truth and so, is able to be game master? I don't get how she is able to be both reader and game master at the same time, 2nd half of the last part confused me totally.
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Old 2010-07-12, 02:28   Link #13692
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Originally Posted by Xapheron View Post
Sorry to interrupt, but after finishing ep 6, there were some parts I couldn't get; mainly the last part. Does the last part mean that Bern has reached the truth and so, is able to be game master? I don't get how she is able to be both reader and game master at the same time, 2nd half of the last part confused me totally.
Bern is assigned the role of game master because Featherinne doesn't believe Battler is willing to show the true colors of his family. He did was Beatrice was doing - portraying them as tragic heroes (okay maybe excluding George and to some level Kyrie, but otherwise). If the truth is going to come out it needs to come off like a bandage. Harsh and quick. Bern is pretty much the soul-crushing fantasy killer that can do this job. Featherinne will probably explain to her the truth (at least her truth) and Bern will weave a story out of it.
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Old 2010-07-12, 02:37   Link #13693
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I dont remember correctly, but didnt Bern in some screenshot or other material for ep7 say to someone something like "please, weave a tale fitting for Beato's funeral"? Is she really a Game Master?
Also, I wonder. Battler didnt really completed goal of ep6 game. He was supposed to show that he understands the truth...but thanks to PLOT DERAILED DUE TO TACTICAL GENIUS Erika, everything ended without him having chance to prove anything. Still, it does not look like he is going to be GM again...

Quote:
Actually I'm more of the idea that Ange would organize a counter attack for the joy of Amakusa.

Defeated Okonogi: Amakusa, how could you betray me...why it escaped...my eyes?
Ange&Amakusa: Because without love---it cannot be seen! <BANG>
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Old 2010-07-12, 03:59   Link #13694
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There are some other things that came across as bit strange in the last phone conversation between Amakusa and Okonogi.

First of all, there seems to have been some kind of "deal" or "alliance" struck after Eva died. In other words Okonogi and some other force that (might have) used to oppose him reached an agreement and banded together. Okonogi mentions that Ange was supposed to be their "portable shrine", but what would that mean? If we take it as it sounds, Ange was supposed to be something they would have paraded around, showing her off to everyone so they could direct all attention towards her, while Okonogi and this other, unknown force could have done their work in peace.

Scapegoat, anyone?

Other thing very strange is what comes right after that portable shrine here. Okonogi agrees that Ange is a "liability" and somehow connects that to the "world peace". Now, Okonogi might be exaggerating, but nevertheless, it should have something to do with keeping the public in check. Maybe to stop a certain "truth" from getting out and causing uproar? But what could that truth be?

And right in the end, Amakusa laments that Ange would die soon because she "would not follow the orders of others". In other words, she was a wild card that could not be trusted. What springs to mind is that maybe, Okonogi and this "shadowy ally" were trying to get their hands on the Ushiromiya fortune. Initial plan was to have Ange act as a puppet-head, with them controlling the wealth behind the scenes. But because Ange was too unpredictable to be used as a puppet-head, they decided to get rid of her, and try something else.

Just a thought, but the more I analyze that phone call, the more likely I find that something slightly like this has to be going on.
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Old 2010-07-12, 05:52   Link #13695
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Regarding the most recent subject at hand, this is a little theory of mine that started faintly in Episode 4 and then go full force with Episode 6.
If this theory was already brought out, my apologies (the thread is absurdely large, and I really don't have time to check it all the time so):

What if the mastermind isn't the (main) culprit?

This train of thought started when I saw some people thinking that the Fukuin house wasn't exactly a normal orphanage and that assassins were trained there, per Kinzo's request.
Now, this looks a bit far fetched, but thinking about it, I was wondering if the mastermind couldn't be simply the person who benefits the most of this chaotic situation, but simply couldn't attend the conference and/or didn't want to have their hand dirty, thus using a Fukuin child for this?

Ever since Episode 4, a certain character was quite suspicious in my eyes, and Episode 6 confirmed it: Okonogi.
A lot of evidences are pointing that Okonogi is by no mean a joke:
-he has connection with the Ushiromiya (mainly, with Eva and Hideyoshi)
-he has taken over the business of the Ushiromiya family once Eva died.
-he took Ange under his wing, sort of
-planned a internal struggle between Kasumi and Ange, and tried to backstab both of them, in order to seize complete control, along with the sumadera.

Back when Episode 4 was creepy regarding the whole case about letters with access card etc, I was wondering: could the culprit really be that rich and meticulous with that large scale transaction?
I really thought: this really seem to be some plan of an external person. For all it is worth, I would rather expect one of the Ushiromiya's sibling to prepare something of that kind, that or another character with enough financial background for this.
Considering how Okonogi was pretty cunning and waited 12 years before silencing both Kasumi and Ange, I think it is safe to say that Okonogi is the type of guy that invests and can plan things on the very long run: a plan of several years.
Thus... what if he was the one who introduced either Shannon / Kanon through the Fukuin house? If it sounds far fetched to you, what if he simply manipulated one of them before the incident?
Both servants aren't always on duty, and as seen in Episode 4, Okonogi is a smooth talker that can involve "love" in a discussion, which is a common weakness with teenagers.

This is actually the point that makes me a bit more confident about this theory, due to the motive of the culprit: Virgilia stated in red that the culprit didn't do it for Revenge, Pleasure or causing Fear.
However, people has casted away the motive related to money, because none of the siblings would go as far as killing their own family in the process. Therefore... what if the money motive was someone "indirectly" involved? Plus, if Okonogi is really the mastermind behind all of that crap, manipulating people behind the curtains wouldn't be hard... again the "love" thing.

Thus far, Okonogi is really suspicious to me, because he has the financial influence and background to prepare such complicated plan. That, and the fact that he is the individual that benefits the most after the utter massacre on Rokkenjima.

From a narrative point of view, it is also a bit weird that Ryukishi presents elements, a sub-plot so to speak, that doesn't seem to have a direct link to the rokkenjima incident. Yet, it is done twice, with even more details about Okonogi in Episode 6.

That theory doesn't really explain what really happened in Rokkenjima, but I think factoring Okonogi in the process explain the "whydunnit" of the main culprit, and some "howdunnit" of 1998 (namely, the compensation in cash).
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Old 2010-07-12, 06:04   Link #13696
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It's not farfetched at all. If you think about it though besides Okonogi there are a bunch of potential "off island masterminds". But Now that I think about it Okonogi and Other Battler are the only ones that really work best.

The other theories I've proposed for the off island types involve groups rather than characters, which Knox's 1st might forbid I don't know. Most specifically 'GHQ' in EP1, 'The Sumadera Family', and 'the Witch Hunters' are potential groups that might benefit.

I know it's ironic but, getting people to beleive in the occult or otherwise make a profit selling occult mysteries would be a motive for a "witch hunt culprit theory". But it doesn't explain the creepy letters with the access cards the way Okonogi does. He's buddies with George and Hideyoshi too so I don't have a big problem with it.
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Old 2010-07-12, 06:35   Link #13697
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Wait a minute. I don't remember it all that well, but...

Could Okonogi be one of the "forces" trying to steal Hideyoshi's company away?

No wait, it wouldn't make sense for Eva to trust him that much after all that. In any case, apparently it's not only Eva/Hideyoshi that he was acquintanced with, but with Rudolf's company too. It could make sense that if he was trying to take over the whole Ushiromiya wealth, but on the other hand, it would be much more efficient with the "bomb". In other words, could Okonogi be the one to blow up the whole mansion, trying to erase everything with one single shot?

But despite that, Eva came back, and his plans were derailed until Eva herself died, naturally or not.
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Old 2010-07-12, 06:43   Link #13698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Wait a minute. I don't remember it all that well, but...

Could Okonogi be one of the "forces" trying to steal Hideyoshi's company away?
That's exactly what I was implying: there is no proof that Okonogi wasn't behind the power struggle within Hideyoshi's company, regarding the stocks.

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No wait, it wouldn't make sense for Eva to trust him that much after all that. In any case, apparently it's not only Eva/Hideyoshi that he was acquintanced with, but with Rudolf's company too. It could make sense that if he was trying to take over the whole Ushiromiya wealth, but on the other hand, it would be much more efficient with the "bomb". In other words, could Okonogi be the one to blow up the whole mansion, trying to erase everything with one single shot?
That wouldn't make sense... unless Okonogi was acting like an "ally" during this dire situation, holding stocks himself, keeping Hideyoshi as the president, but not for long. In a way, he used the same trick for Ange: acting like an ally, but the support provided isn't almighty and must be used as soon as possible. That doesn't mean he wasn't ill intentioned in the end.
This is also the reason why I suspect him: despite Eva insanity, she still trust Okonogi to some extent, since the latter managed to get his hands on the Ushiromiya Business after her death (that and the fact Okonogi received a significant post while Eva was still alive).
There must be a very special business parternship between him and Eva, and having a very solid past experience would explain this (which is described in his ep4 bios).

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But despite that, Eva came back, and his plans were derailed until Eva herself died, naturally or not.
Derailed? I don't think so: in fact, Episode 4 was profitable for him, because Eva went nuts, acted like Kinzo, and made the whole business area even more prosperous for the Ushiromiya party.
If we consider Okonogi's long term plan, the fact Eva returned alive was perhaps the best opportunity, since she obviously turn broken as result.
Even if Eva didn't die, Okonogi is still profiting the situation by a long shot, as a favored business partner, or even right hand man.
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Old 2010-07-12, 07:16   Link #13699
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's exactly what I was implying: there is no proof that Okonogi wasn't behind the power struggle within Hideyoshi's company, regarding the stocks.
Thinking all this from this certain angle makes many things pop in my mind. For example, all that "hinting" about Hideyoshi's connection with yakuza, the whole deal with Sumadera family, Kyrie's boat-ticket to Niijima.....some might be completely unrelated, but if there's something in this theory, then some of those suspicious-yet-seemingly-unrelated-things could serve as clues. There'd just have to be something to tie them in to Okonogi...

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Derailed? I don't think so: in fact, Episode 4 was profitable for him, because Eva went nuts, acted like Kinzo, and made the whole business area even more prosperous for the Ushiromiya party.
If we consider Okonogi's long term plan, the fact Eva returned alive was perhaps the best opportunity, since she obviously turn broken as result.
Even if Eva didn't die, Okonogi is still profiting the situation by a long shot, as a favored business partner, or even right hand man.
Well, I didn't mean exactly "derailed". More proper wording would most likely have been: "Did not go exactly the way he planned". Maybe Okonogi was just given the chance of his lifetime when Eva actually came back, and he was able to "fatten the pig" (grow wealth of Ushiromiya family) before it was served as a meal to him.

However, would Okonogi actually get his hands on the money if both Eva and Ange died? Does he have the necessary connection? I'm not quite sure what the law says about that kind of "inheritance" in Japan, but I would imagine it's not without a problem.

Oh yeah, one more thing to make Okonogi suspicious: He actually comes up with the whole phrase "Without love, it cannot be seen" that is repeated so many times in the story.
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Old 2010-07-12, 07:26   Link #13700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
However, would Okonogi actually get his hands on the money if both Eva and Ange died? Does he have the necessary connection? I'm not quite sure what the law says about that kind of "inheritance" in Japan, but I would imagine it's not without a problem.
It is very likely that there would be an intense power struggle within the business left by the Ushiromiya. As described in okonogi's bios, the situation seems to be rather chaotic.
It is very likely that stock owners would be in direct conflict with others families, such like the Sumadera, Natsuhi's family, or perhaps even Rosa's husband (if he catch wind of the whole issue).

This is also the reason I think it was more advantageous for Okonogi that Eva returned alive, since she appointed him to a significant post.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised that Okonogi initial plan was to have a chaotic business environnement. From there, he could seize hideyoshi's fast food restaurant chains, and starts grabbing Ushiromiya assets from this point (a bit like how Kinzo was taking advantage of the economic fall due to the war and so forth).

Ultimately, regardless if there was a survivor or not, the mass murder certainly gives a lot of advantage for Okonogi (even if Eva's family is spared, he can take advantage of the psychological weakness after such tragedy etc).
In a way, it is difficult to imagine a situation where Okonogi isn't the winner.
Quote:
Oh yeah, one more thing to make Okonogi suspicious: He actually comes up with the whole phrase "Without love, it cannot be seen" that is repeated so many times in the story.
Yep, that's exactly the point that makes me think that Okonogi brainwashed the real culprit with some "love" smoothtalking.
If we consider Shannon or Kanon as his target, any of the two would have been a very vulnerable target to this kind of talk.
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