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Old 2010-07-12, 07:38   Link #13701
Verg Avesta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Ultimately, regardless if there was a survivor or not, the mass murder certainly gives a lot of advantage for Okonogi (even if Eva's family is spared, he can take advantage of the psychological weakness after such tragedy etc).
In a way, it is difficult to imagine a situation where Okonogi isn't the winner.
But then there comes the other issue: Why send all that money to the families of few victims? What's the point? I don't think they would have known anything, so it cannot be a bribe to have them keep their mouths shut. Not to mention the date when the letters were sent, which is already strange in itself. If Okonogi was behind that, what did he gain from presenting that money to some of the families?

And a random thought: What Okonogi is to Eva sounds roughly the same what Nanjo is to Kinzo. In a non-medical-way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Yep, that's exactly the point that makes me think that Okonogi brainwashed the real culprit with some "love" smoothtalking.
If we consider Shannon or Kanon as his target, any of the two would have been a very vulnerable target to this kind of talk.
But is there any hint that Okonogi even could have met Shannon or Kanon? Is it even shown that Okonogi knows about Fukuin? With Ryuukishi pressing the importance of Knox, I'd think there should be some foreshadowing if this was the case.

And still, even if Okonogi is the mastermind, can he still be called the "culprit"? And if he can, what does "Early part of the story" count in Knox's 1st?
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Old 2010-07-12, 07:54   Link #13702
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Could Okonogi be one of the "forces" trying to steal Hideyoshi's company away?
That's what I speculated a while ago. But the way I saw it Okonogi was just a mastermind behind the scene in this. The story says that the take over started because the investors begun to distrust Hideyoshi. So my take is that Okonogi is the one who spread the distrust.
In other words it's not the Okonogi food company that is trying to remove Hideyoshi from the headship but another party or an alliance of stock holders.
I think the second hypothesis is more probable, since Okonogi could step in after the take over and made them vote him as the new CEO.
Considering he became the head of the Ushiromiya group in 1998 this isn't far fetched.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
For example, all that "hinting" about Hideyoshi's connection with yakuza
Considering how unresponsive the other people were to Hideyoshi's stories, I think we shouldn't take this so seriously. First off he didn't actually say he was a yakuza, he just said that the black market was controlled by Yakuza and that was to explain how he got hold of a gun, since they are illegal.

But even if he really meant to say he has a connection to the yakuza it could just be a story he made up. He's a man who talks in a fake kansai accent, you can't trust everything he says.


On the matter of Okonogi.
I think chronotrig had a similar theory some time ago, but if I remember correctly he paired that to his Nanjo theory. So it was Nanjo's grandchildren the one who was manipulated by Okonogi and so on. But the rest is basically the same.

This theory however isn't much different from the Samadera culprit theory, it just changes the mastermind to another off-island enemy (Sumadera -> Okonogi) and the accomplice in the island (Kyrie -> Shannon/Kanon).
The previous theory however has the advantage of explaining how Ange happened to have a fever just a day before the family meeting. It is hard to imagine how Okonogi could have done that since there is no known connection between him and Rudolf's family.

Also, while the "without love it can't be seen" is definitely suspicious, Hideyoshi's and George's connection to Okonogi are even more apparent.


That apart. The off island mastermind theory regardless of who is the mastermind suffers narratively from the fact nothing of the sort has been hinted before Episode4. Of course you can say that Episode4 is still a question arc, but it really came a little late.
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Old 2010-07-12, 10:27   Link #13703
Judoh
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What do you guys think Okonogi meant when he said "we're talking about world peace here right?" How does Ange being a liability turn into THAT?
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Old 2010-07-12, 11:40   Link #13704
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
What do you guys think Okonogi meant when he said "we're talking about world peace here right?" How does Ange being a liability turn into THAT?
...Yamashita treasure and numerous parties that may want it back would be a way.

Doesn't work that well though, because the Yamashita gold counted hundreds of vaults and thousands of metric tons of gold, rather than just the ten that Kinzo had.
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Old 2010-07-12, 11:49   Link #13705
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So basically Ange could expose some secret that would create a diplomatic incident is the only way to give to this sentence some kind of credibility.
But even then isn't "world peace" a little exaggerated?

I really can't see what kind of diplomatic incident based on japan could trigger a world war.

In the end I can only conclude that Okonogi is talking shit.
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Old 2010-07-12, 11:52   Link #13706
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Sorry for the tangent, but I have an urgent question about Battler/Kanon's escape in EP6.

Okay, I understand the premises behind how Erika was able to explain the incident. But this red truth causes a contradiction:

Kanon is not inside the guest room.

By itself, it's fine. But with this one, said by Beatrice to Erika:

Of course. Three people --- in other words, three bodies --- went in or out. Only you or Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

This is physically impossible: how can Kanon have entered the room and not have exited, but not be in the room when Erika checks the closet?

EDIT: Unless Kanon somehow died inside the room, but he would still be "inside the room."
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:04   Link #13707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Sorry for the tangent, but I have an urgent question about Battler/Kanon's escape in EP6.

Okay, I understand the premises behind how Erika was able to explain the incident. But this red truth causes a contradiction:

Kanon is not inside the guest room.

By itself, it's fine. But with this one, said by Beatrice to Erika:

Of course. Three people --- in other words, three bodies --- went in or out. Only you or Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

This is physically impossible: how can Kanon have entered the room and not have exited, but not be in the room when Erika checks the closet?

EDIT: Unless Kanon somehow died inside the room, but he would still be "inside the room."
The second red truth notes that it's three bodies. In short, Erika could have killed Kanon and his body would still be in the room.
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:14   Link #13708
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The second red truth notes that it's three bodies. In short, Erika could have killed Kanon and his body would still be in the room.
So Kanon is no longer Kanon if he's dead? I understand the reasoning behind that, but still:
But there is a red text confirmed that the people were being referred to as bodies, not personalities. At least, if I remember correctly. If Kanon's personality was no longer in the room, that's fine. But his body did not leave the room, either.

It comes down to word choice, I guess: the difference between "exists" and "is."

If Kanon does not "exist" inside the room, we have a logic error. If Kanon "is" not inside the room (the state of being alive) then I guess there is no problem...
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:16   Link #13709
ijriims
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"World peace"

If the Ushiromiya Corporate (Eva) got hold of something which can change the world, then it is related to world peace.

My line of thinking:

Kinzo attempted to resurrect Beatrice(the cliff-fallen one). First try was the 19th boy from EP5, next was Sayo and Yoshiya, finally successful before he died. So he perished in peace) -> Rokkenjima incident, Eva inherited the island, she found Kinzo's research in Kwadorian -> She concealed it from the public. She revealed it to the government on the price of every successful utilization has to be used on her, she earned huge amount of money from it -> she was cured from her disease and intended to have a new life, after she murdered Ange on Rokkenjima -> Okonogi was aware of Eva's survival and hence was worried if Ange would continue to conceal the tech (which could cause war if it ended up in terrorists' hand), so he planned to kill her
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:28   Link #13710
shindekureru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Sorry for the tangent, but I have an urgent question about Battler/Kanon's escape in EP6.

Okay, I understand the premises behind how Erika was able to explain the incident. But this red truth causes a contradiction:

Kanon is not inside the guest room.

By itself, it's fine. But with this one, said by Beatrice to Erika:

Of course. Three people --- in other words, three bodies --- went in or out. Only you or Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

This is physically impossible: how can Kanon have entered the room and not have exited, but not be in the room when Erika checks the closet?

EDIT: Unless Kanon somehow died inside the room, but he would still be "inside the room."
Disclaimer: I'm a person who believes that Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are all personalities in one vessel. HOWEVER, I am not using that belief to come to a "truth" I reached in this post.

One interpretation: Kanon comes to save Battler. After Battler escapes and Kanon makes the guest room a closed room again he hides in the closet.

Remember how he said he had a debt to pay to Beatrice? My thoughts on this go back to that butterfly brooch Beatrice had given Shannon to help her with love. Shannon in turn gave that to Kanon and eventually he learned love. He was indebted to Beatrice. And the way to fulfill that debt? To take Battler's place and save him. Once in the closet he accepts that because he can love he is no longer furniture, therefore becoming human and losing the furniture name of "Kanon" becoming his true form of Yoshiya.
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:33   Link #13711
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So basically Ange could expose some secret that would create a diplomatic incident is the only way to give to this sentence some kind of credibility.
But even then isn't "world peace" a little exaggerated?
He has to be exaggerating one way or another, the real question is how far.
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:37   Link #13712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
So Kanon is no longer Kanon if he's dead? I understand the reasoning behind that, but still:
But there is a red text confirmed that the people were being referred to as bodies, not personalities. At least, if I remember correctly. If Kanon's personality was no longer in the room, that's fine. But his body did not leave the room, either.

It comes down to word choice, I guess: the difference between "exists" and "is."

If Kanon does not "exist" inside the room, we have a logic error. If Kanon "is" not inside the room (the state of being alive) then I guess there is no problem...
Someone posted something similar to what I am going to put in a general notion. The body Kanon occupied is still in the room but that person is no longer considered to be Kanon.
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Old 2010-07-12, 13:08   Link #13713
shindekureru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shindekureru View Post
Disclaimer: I'm a person who believes that Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are all personalities in one vessel. HOWEVER, I am not using that belief to come to a "truth" I reached in this post.

One interpretation: Kanon comes to save Battler. After Battler escapes and Kanon makes the guest room a closed room again he hides in the closet.

Remember how he said he had a debt to pay to Beatrice? My thoughts on this go back to that butterfly brooch Beatrice had given Shannon to help her with love. Shannon in turn gave that to Kanon and eventually he learned love. He was indebted to Beatrice. And the way to fulfill that debt? To take Battler's place and save him. Once in the closet he accepts that because he can love he is no longer furniture, therefore becoming human and losing the furniture name of "Kanon" becoming his true form of Yoshiya.
If we go with Shakannon then another option is that after hiding in the closet the personality of Kanon no longer exists in the room because Shannon has taken over.

Though that should be an obvious alternative since I stated I believe they're the same. I just happened to give an example of another "truth."
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Old 2010-07-12, 14:02   Link #13714
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
If Kanon does not "exist" inside the room, we have a logic error. If Kanon "is" not inside the room (the state of being alive) then I guess there is no problem...
Please remember that a mistake/inconsistency has no relationship to "logic error" at all. Logic error is solely an issue in term of the narration of the witch, under the premise that any trick must be also possible by a human, and the fact 2 points don't match make it a logical error.

Anyway, we know ever since episode 3 that the red does -not- consider dead people as "existence".
The proof is the death of original beatrice and kinzo.
If the dead is included as "people existence", then we would have a very gross issue with the number of people on the island and whatnot.

Once someone is dead, they do -not- exist for the gameboard, which is logical since it is literally removing the piece from the board for them.
Therefore, Kanon is either dead, or for those who think about personality, his persona was shut down.

By no mean Kanon could leave physically the room, that's the point of Beato's riddle of this closed room.
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Old 2010-07-12, 14:07   Link #13715
k//eternal
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Agreed with Klash. I'm convinced that one way or another, Kanon is dead. If he's a separate person then he killed himself somewhere (closet or bed), I guess.
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Old 2010-07-12, 15:23   Link #13716
Pinguma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Sorry for the tangent, but I have an urgent question about Battler/Kanon's escape in EP6.

Okay, I understand the premises behind how Erika was able to explain the incident. But this red truth causes a contradiction:

Kanon is not inside the guest room.

By itself, it's fine. But with this one, said by Beatrice to Erika:

Of course. Three people --- in other words, three bodies --- went in or out. Only you or Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

This is physically impossible: how can Kanon have entered the room and not have exited, but not be in the room when Erika checks the closet?

EDIT: Unless Kanon somehow died inside the room, but he would still be "inside the room."
Wait, isn't that red out of context? There were multiple red truths in succession. Coudn't you look at it like this :

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.
I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.

[Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

These reds follow on right after the first red, and I always thought they were essentially building upon the first red truth, i.e.

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

The final sentence just specifies who entered the room and who exited the room, so:

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

The red about only Battler exiting is referring to the time Erika and Kanon entered the room, until the logic error occured. Beatrice brings up the red about the guestroom after the logic error has has been fixed, (by Kanon going in the closet?), so "Kanon not being in the guestroom" after the logic error has been fixed, would not contradict the other red about Kanon in the guestroom, which is referring to the "time between when Erika and Kanon enter, until the logic error occurs.", an earlier time period.

Well...those were just my first thoughts as I was reading the game. Sorry if I can't explain it well, it's a bit hard to put into words, but I prefer this to anything like Kanon dying or persona dying, because it seems possible for him to escape without breaking the seal, with the method in question possibly being able to answer some stuff in EP1-4.

Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-07-12 at 15:35. Reason: typo
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Old 2010-07-12, 15:39   Link #13717
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
Wait, isn't that red out of context? There were multiple red truths in succession. Coudn't you look at it like this :

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.
I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.

[Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

These reds follow on right after the first red, and I always thought they were essentially building upon the first red truth, i.e.

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

The final sentence just specifies who entered the room and who exited the room, so:

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

The red about only Battler exiting is referring to the time Erika and Kanon entered the room, until the logic error occured. Beatrice brings up the red about the guestroom after the logic error has has been fixed, (by Kanon going in the closet?), so "Kanon not being in the guestroom" after the logic error has been fixed, would not contradict the other red about Kanon in the guestroom, which is referring to the "time between when Erika and Kanon enter, until the logic error occurs.", an earlier time period.

Well...those were just my first thoughts as I was reading the game. Sorry if I can't explain it well, it's a bit hard to put into words, but I prefer this to anything like Kanon dying or persona dying, because it seems possible for him to escape without breaking the seal, with the method in question possibly being able to answer some stuff in EP1-4.
That could work, but I thought the game was halted at the logic error? Forgive me for not remembering, but I don't know if the game was ever resumed even if the logic was restored. Otherwise Kanon could have just found his mystery exit-plan after the logic error was lifted. But it is much cooler to have him die inside the room
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:31   Link #13718
Pinguma
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Um..haha I'm not actually sure if it was halted myself. I think the logic error existed because at that time there was no one to rescue him but it disappeared when the new information was reported. I remember how Dlanor said something like how changes will be reported when they affect the progression of the game. So this new information that Kanon could actually take Battler's place was reported, progressing the game further. And this info about the window seal being altered was reported during the duel between Beatrice and Erika. I think like that, the game may have been progressing during their duel?

Having him die...well he just has to be flushed down the bathtub
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:00   Link #13719
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I'm pretty sure that it is assumed that the game halted at the time of the logic error. I guess you can still think it is a trick, but personally I consider this very improbable.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:13   Link #13720
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm pretty sure that it is assumed that the game halted at the time of the logic error. I guess you can still think it is a trick, but personally I consider this very improbable.
It was. When a Logic Error happens, the gameboard is destroyed, sort of like a computer program crashing when there's an error in the coding or with the data. However, since Battler, the Game Master, refused to admit it was a Logic Error, no destruction ever took place, so instead the gameboard was frozen until Beato solved it.
That and Erika had Battler freeze gameboard time when she entered the room... and yet somehow managed to interact with the trap and repair the chain lock. Ryuukishi's a little loosed on physics here.
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