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Old 2010-07-12, 17:27   Link #13721
Pinguma
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Wait so Erika can freeze time to do all that but Kanon or Battler can't? That's damn unfair.

I think Ryukishi is a bit awkward with this though, so the gameboard is meant to be frozen after the logic error, which continued to exist because Battler was trapped. But during the duel between Erika and Beatrice, Dlanor 'updates' about the window seal being altered, thus Kanon is actually able to rescue Battler, so the logic error can be fixed. Um...so if it's frozen, it's as though a truth was added and the pieces automatically adopted new positions, and as if the previous position had never existed? I'm honestly damn confused about this...
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:30   Link #13722
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Erika freezed the Gameboard even in EP5. Apparently it's a right of the human side. One of the many Battler has never been informed about...
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:33   Link #13723
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Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
Wait so Erika can freeze time to do all that but Kanon or Battler can't? That's damn unfair.

I think Ryukishi is a bit awkward with this though, so the gameboard is meant to be frozen after the logic error, which continued to exist because Battler was trapped. But during the duel between Erika and Beatrice, Dlanor 'updates' about the window seal being altered, thus Kanon is actually able to rescue Battler, so the logic error can be fixed. Um...so if it's frozen, it's as though a truth was added and the pieces automatically adopted new positions, and as if the previous position had never existed? I'm honestly damn confused about this...
It's one of the things, I assume, is like this:

Think of it like a paused game. No future developments can be added to muddle anything. In other words, to just preserve the current state. It seems that the past can be changed to fix the error, but nothing can be added to "escape" the crisis.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:34   Link #13724
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Erika freezed the Gameboard even in EP5. Apparently it's a right of the human side. One of the many Battler has never been informed about...
I'm not sure. There's times when he stops to argue with Beato where time freezes, though there's just as many where it doesn't. I think the Game Master is the one who does all the time freezing, but the human side has the right to request (or in Battler's case, desire) time freezing, and the Game Master must do so, unless circumstances make them unavailable to.
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Old 2010-07-12, 19:01   Link #13725
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
It's one of the things, I assume, is like this:

Think of it like a paused game. No future developments can be added to muddle anything. In other words, to just preserve the current state. It seems that the past can be changed to fix the error, but nothing can be added to "escape" the crisis.
Hehe I think I understand, thanks.

I wonder then, if a past event is altered, not only is the present event altered as a result of fixing that error in the present, but it could even be considered as becoming the new truth. So the previous truth is altered. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though, and even more so if I try to find a way to apply it to the contradiction of red. After the red of only Battler exiting the room, I do not recall any changes made to fix any error in the present.

Though did the logic error actually remain present until Kanon 'escaped'? Battler was only freed after Beatrice won the duel with her perfect closed room idea where Kanon also 'escaped'. Battler remained 'trapped' even after the red she used about "only Erika and Kanon entering, only Battler exiting". So the logic error was only truly fixed when she stated the red truth about Kanon not being present in the guestroom. This would be like saying she stated a wrong red truth and this kept the logic error going but that just sounds crazy... I bet I'm just rambling on now and it probably doesn't make sense anymore...it's 1am here right now, I think I'll just catch some sleep..
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:11   Link #13726
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I'm back from reading the translated version of episode 6. I must say, I can't quite deny Shkanontrice after that.

But, like many other people, I am left with perhaps more questions than answers. The biggest elephant in the room being this.

Is Shkanontrice the murderer? The episode clearly points to this, with Shannon and Kanon's duel, specifically them cheerfully awaiting the day that everyone dies and the golden land opens. But... I find it hard to believe that Battler would so quickly side with his family's murderer, regardless of the motive....
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:17   Link #13727
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There's really no explanation of a murderer at all. Indeed, Erika aside, there are no murders. So whether Shkanon is true or not, Shannon and Kanon certainly aren't being portrayed as murderers. Their grudge is with each other, not with anybody else.
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:24   Link #13728
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In the context of episode six, yes, I understand, no one truly died due to the game's initial set-up.(Until Erika got "ahead" of herself) But, do remember, at the end of their duel they talk about the day when "all will die" and other creepy, ominous nonsense.

And of course we have the problem of Beatrice's soul, in addition to Kanon's being absorbed by Shannon. If Jessica's soul were also absorbed, that scene wouldn't be as damning, but....

Well, suffice it to say that episode 6 is rather troubling for someone who thought that Beatrice was innocent of the murders.
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:26   Link #13729
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Maybe that really just is the truth. Given the explosion at the end and lack of evidence for a murder, the murders could have just been something added by the message bottles and never have taken place at all. Everyone just gets killed by the game-ending disaster.

I can't tell if that would be awesome or just really silly. Depends on presentation, I suppose.
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:29   Link #13730
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Well, I must say, if Beatrice truly was the killer, I can't view Umineko as having a good ending. Heck, all of Umineko looks rather bleak at the moment. Nothing to do but wait until August 15th, I suppose.
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:33   Link #13731
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
In the context of episode six, yes, I understand, no one truly died due to the game's initial set-up.(Until Erika got "ahead" of herself) But, do remember, at the end of their duel they talk about the day when "all will die" and other creepy, ominous nonsense.
At the very least it totally looks like Shannon and Kanon are aware that everyone will die, and what they refer to is most probably the final explosion.

Unfortunately since they are meta-characters that are talking it isn't clear if they know all that as meta-characters who have repeated the game over and over, or that they know that even as shannon and kanon in their roles as pieces in the gameboard.
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Old 2010-07-12, 22:53   Link #13732
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Not sure if it's been discussed here, but is it possible that Beatrice put herself into a logic error at the end of Ep 4? This could explain her coma-like state Ep 5, because she didn't want to fight Battler anymore, she put herself into a logic error to escape him.

Which would mean there is a logic error somewhere in Ep 4. Probably among the last few red texts...
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:02   Link #13733
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That's an interesting thought.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:02   Link #13734
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Not sure if it's been discussed here, but is it possible that Beatrice put herself into a logic error at the end of Ep 4? This could explain her coma-like state Ep 5, because she didn't want to fight Battler anymore, she put herself into a logic error to escape him.

Which would mean there is a logic error somewhere in Ep 4. Probably among the last few red texts...
How about her final lines? If anything, calling that a massive Logic Error would make a lot of our lives a hell of a lot easier.
Hm... can't say I agree with you though. Beato is a master of closed rooms, so much that once she regains her former self, she solves Battler's Logic Error in no time at all, and then proceeds to construct an even more devious puzzle which isn't a Logic Error. And I think someone, either Virgillia/Kumasawa or Lambda said that Beato never caused a Logic Error during her games. It might not have been in red, but there's no reason to think they're lying.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:08   Link #13735
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I'm back from reading the translated version of episode 6. I must say, I can't quite deny Shkanontrice after that.
All depends on how you look at it. I for one, say felt more like it's a large amount complex psychological ties Kanon and Shannon have bound each other to the other with, so much that they believe themselves to be half of one person each, and that together they make a whole. It's funny, really. Episode 6, which seems like it's supposed to make every feel that Shkanon is the truth, only ended up making me believe in the opposite to it. This also boosts the Shannontrice theory, as since Shannon and Beatrice would be the same person, Shannon winning would mean her love for Battler would never succeed.

Course, Battler comes along afterwards, and seems to screw the entire love trials ending (with Zepar and Furfur's approval) to marry Beato, so I'm not to sure on that last point.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:17   Link #13736
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Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it's possible to create a logic error. There has to be some reason why Battler couldn't say "I was born from Asumu" in red. That might even be part of the torture of 'logic errors': you know there's a way out, but you don't know if you're capable of finding it alone.

Of course, it could just be that the past is set in stone, so different rules apply.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:24   Link #13737
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
How about her final lines? If anything, calling that a massive Logic Error would make a lot of our lives a hell of a lot easier.
Hm... can't say I agree with you though. Beato is a master of closed rooms, so much that once she regains her former self, she solves Battler's Logic Error in no time at all, and then proceeds to construct an even more devious puzzle which isn't a Logic Error. And I think someone, either Virgillia/Kumasawa or Lambda said that Beato never caused a Logic Error during her games. It might not have been in red, but there's no reason to think they're lying.
Wasn't it said that Beatrice encountered Logic Errors a few times, but always found a way around them...? But for this, I'm saying she didn't accidentally make one, she purposely did it. It both gave us, the readers, a massive red herring (in a sense that we don't know it was a logic error, so we believe that everything is fine) and Beatrice a way out of her game.

And if you're the Game Master, like Beatrice was, I wouldn't say it's impossible to create a logic error on purpose... Especially in the state Beatrice was in by the end of Ep4.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:30   Link #13738
Raiza Sunozaki
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Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it's possible to create a logic error.
Having to think hard about Logic Errors, I've come to the thought that they are less of Errors and more of a This Game Master is Stupid. After all, the blame of a Logic Error lies entirely on the Game Master, who only creates them when they are unable to explain how one even can happen from a magic and a human side.
If Genius Battler is false, then his largest problem was trying to make one of his early puzzles the one Erika fails at. He constantly added details on, trying to confuse her, but ended up only confusing himself.
On the other hand, this is also support for the Genius Battler Theory. After all, if you want to fall into a trap that your opponent is making, fall into it early so that there's little room for complication.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:33   Link #13739
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Wasn't it said that Beatrice encountered Logic Errors a few times, but always found a way around them...? But for this, I'm saying she didn't accidentally make one, she purposely did it. It both gave us, the readers, a massive red herring (in a sense that we don't know it was a logic error, so we believe that everything is fine) and Beatrice a way out of her game.

And if you're the Game Master, like Beatrice was, I wouldn't say it's impossible to create a logic error on purpose... Especially in the state Beatrice was in by the end of Ep4.
Logic Errors would go unnoticed though, unless the human side decided to call them-which Battler being imcompetent, would not do.
Wait, could the referee of the game also call Logic Errors? I think it's hinted at that being a possibility. So Lambda possibly could've called her on any Logic Errors she made. And since she didn't, I can still say that Beato never actually created one.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:50   Link #13740
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Having to think hard about Logic Errors, I've come to the thought that they are less of Errors and more of a This Game Master is Stupid. After all, the blame of a Logic Error lies entirely on the Game Master, who only creates them when they are unable to explain how one even can happen from a magic and a human side.
If Genius Battler is false, then his largest problem was trying to make one of his early puzzles the one Erika fails at. He constantly added details on, trying to confuse her, but ended up only confusing himself.
On the other hand, this is also support for the Genius Battler Theory. After all, if you want to fall into a trap that your opponent is making, fall into it early so that there's little room for complication.
They explain that in the game. If Erika figures out that Battler is the culprit and alive, then the rest of his plan falls apart. He would have to remake everything from scratch and on the fly, which is apparently very hard to do for the Game Master (remember how long it took for him to create the game in the first place). And since Erika would have more or less proven who the main 'culprit' is, Battler would be unable to use the Battler piece for any further closed room tricks unless he disguised it very, very well.

And don't forget that, unless Genius Battler was true, he didn't know that the other people were dead until it was too late. Except for that fact, he had a clear way out from start to finish.
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