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Old 2010-07-13, 05:03   Link #13741
zibbazabba905
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Join Date: Jun 2010
SUBMISSION OF REQUEST FOR APROVAL:
Requesting status change from: WITCH HUNTER to ENDLESS SORCERER.

Request is as follows.

Under the idea put forth in Lady LambdaDelta's diary: "...It's possible for a human to acknowledge that one transcended the human level but, only a witch can acknowledge whether you reached the witch level..." I submit to you my TRUTH. Also attached Annex 1 is my solution to the closed room logic error. Annex 2 contains unknowns.

Spoiler for Submission of Truth:


Spoiler for Annex 1: The Closed Room:


Spoiler for Annex 2: Unknowns:


Requesting title of "Endless Sorcerer of Disbelief" Because I feel it is more fun reading the story when I am wrong about my theories.

Last edited by zibbazabba905; 2010-07-13 at 05:28.
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Old 2010-07-13, 06:12   Link #13742
Thunder Book
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But zibba...

Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
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Old 2010-07-13, 06:22   Link #13743
Auria
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Dunno from which board or by whom this theory was created (a friend showed it to me), but it's undeniably the best theory EVER:
Spoiler for mindfuck:
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Old 2010-07-13, 07:28   Link #13744
Thunder Book
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Leaving bombs in a guest room?

Well I wouldn't put it past Ki.. never mind.
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Old 2010-07-13, 07:38   Link #13745
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it's possible to create a logic error. There has to be some reason why Battler couldn't say "I was born from Asumu" in red. That might even be part of the torture of 'logic errors': you know there's a way out, but you don't know if you're capable of finding it alone.

Of course, it could just be that the past is set in stone, so different rules apply.
I don't think the comparison is correct.

"God" doesn't make logic errors.
An inexperienced author might.


We learned from EP6 that logic errors can appear in the process of creation before the game starts. That's what Genji implied. So they can exist before a single red was stated.
That's it to be perfectly clear logic errors are not exactly the result of two conflicting reds. Logic errors are conflicting elements in the gameboard.
Of course a conflicting element that wasn't stated in red is a very trivial issue. You just need to erase it and you are done. So you could say that a logic error becomes problematic only when it's set in stone, through the use of reds.

It has made quite clear in EP6 that logic errors can be fixed. So the definition of logic error can't be related to two conflicting reds, because reds are the absolute truth. If that was the definition of logic error, a logic error would be by definition unsolvable.

To further prove my point Lambda was to judge if there was a logic error or not. The only thing that she could do was checking on the gameboard. So a logic error is something you can detect from the setup of the gameboard and not from reds. Regardless of the reds there might or might not be a logic error depending on the move that the Game Master made.
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Old 2010-07-13, 08:32   Link #13746
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Spoiler for I'll probably be killed tonight and related:
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Old 2010-07-13, 08:42   Link #13747
Renall
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I want to discuss the Shkanontrice Identity, because I don't think it makes a lot of sense within itself. There are ways out of the problem, but they kind of make the story stupid. I don't want to just leave it at that, of course, so here are my thoughts and concerns:

Assumptions

For the moment, let's take it on faith that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all one person, that is, there is one body which plays the role of all three. I accept no other assumptions about their nature. For our purposes, any such interpretation is conjecture. It will be addressed, but it's not considered essential to establishing the identity existence or inseparable conceptually.
Spoiler for Who Is The Original?:
Spoiler for Why Create Anyone?:
Spoiler for Does the Love Trial Make Sense?:
I am quite dissatisfied with the inadequacy of some of these issues to be resolved with the information yet presented. Particularly, who this "root" could be and what their objective is.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-07-13, 09:17   Link #13748
Jan-Poo
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Well let's see...

Who is the original?
I never really agreed with the idea that Sayo is the original person. If you paid attention to my theories before you should have noticed that in most cases I never used a clear name to define the core individual. Sayo to me sounds as fake as Yoshiya. For what concerns me the original persona could be called Beatrice or Maria. But that doesn't really constitute a problem for the shkanon theory.


Why create anyone?
I disagree on the fact that Beatrice couldn't have been created after Battler left the Ushiromiya family. It is quite evident that Beatrice was created because the original persona couldn't bear the feeling any longer.

Quote:
I......can no longer love him.
Please, take my feelings that went unfulfilled, ......my feelings that I couldn't hold back,
Imho this strongly suggests that Beatrice was created as a consequence of Battler not coming to the island anymore. The original persona couldn't endure the unfulfilled love anymore but she couldn't erase it either, therefore she created a fake persona that could endure it. She created Beatrice, and while she was at it, why not modeling her as the ideal woman for Battler?
This also fits with the fact that Beatrice claimed that she didn't exist 6 years before.

As for Kanon, I don't have any idea, but I agree he wasn't created for the purpose of loving Jessica. However the fact that we don't know why he was created doesn't mean at all that it doesn't make any sense that he was created.

We know that both Shannon and Kanon were created by Kinzo. What was Kinzo's purpose is anyone's guess.


Does the love trial make sense?
I don't believe one of the three is an original persona, they are all furniture so this point is moot.

As for the golden land, that has nothing to do with becoming human. Actually Shannon and Kanon made it quite clear, the love trial was a farce, they had to do that much earlier. At that point was pointless to make that love test because soon everyone would die and in the golden land they could all fulfill their love anyway.

I think it's clear enough now that the golden land isn't something that exists in the real world. It could be something a la Higurashi, a sort of mythic realm that exists in the collective imaginations. In that world all three the couples can succeed simply because in an imaginary world furnitures and humans are exactly the same thing.
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Old 2010-07-13, 09:30   Link #13749
June 1983
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There's something I'm curious about. I haven't finished Ep 6 yet (I'm not sure how far in I am, I feel like I've been playing forever, but I'm only up to Kyrie vs. Jessica, so maybe halfway through, or a little over halfway maybe?). Something is bothering me though so I thought I would ask about it in here. I apologize if this has been discussed here or in the Ep 6 thread, but I'm trying to avoid being spoiled TOO much, so I haven't gone through many of the posts.

Basically my question is on the nature of the realities/game boards.

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-07-13, 09:45   Link #13750
k//eternal
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Quick thought on Shkanontrice: The question of why Moetrice is weak against Natsuhi's spirit mirror. Under SKT, an explanation is that the problem she has with mirrors is that they remind her that her appearance isn't what she thinks it is, denying her identity as Beatrice.

Also, it might be naive to think that EP1 is the "true reality". I've seen that idea being thrown around a lot, but I think that all the EPs we've seen so far are "fake" and the true events won't happen until EP8 (if that's the final one). EP1 was a message bottle just like EP2, which places them on equal footing in terms of truth value.
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Old 2010-07-13, 09:55   Link #13751
Jan-Poo
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Yeah it's naive. It's more like there is a true reality often called as "Rokkenjima prime" and all the games are fictions created above it.
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Old 2010-07-13, 10:21   Link #13752
Leafsnail
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Come to think of it, this is now a story (1986 Rokkenjima) within a story (meta world) within a story (Featherine and Ange's meta office) within a story (Ange and Hachijo reading it). And it's allowed to jump to any level of the story at any time. Argh, confusing.

The thing I did find odd is that there seemed to be some fundamental reason why Shannon and Kanon couldn't both find love. I Shkannon is the obvious answer, although them being ridiculously close could also be one (they're so attached to each other they can't fully love someone else?).

Also, the last two red truths confirms that the definition of "human" is different from the definition of "people". Although I can't think of any definition of these that'd make sense unless 2 human beings are both using the same identity...
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Old 2010-07-13, 10:38   Link #13753
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Come to think of it, this is now a story (1986 Rokkenjima) within a story (meta world) within a story (Featherine and Ange's meta office) within a story (Ange and Hachijo reading it). And it's allowed to jump to any level of the story at any time. Argh, confusing.
You forgot that it loops back on itself, because Ange's story is within the meta world story, as Meta-Battler gets a full dump of it.
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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-07-13, 11:20   Link #13754
Leafsnail
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Oh god... and Ange's future was part of one of Hachijo's stories. I'm surprised she didn't find it more odd.
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Old 2010-07-13, 12:42   Link #13755
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Come to think of it, this is now a story (1986 Rokkenjima) within a story (meta world) within a story (Featherine and Ange's meta office) within a story (Ange and Hachijo reading it). And it's allowed to jump to any level of the story at any time. Argh, confusing.
I started to develop the Author Theory around EP2-3ish although it was very poorly formed at the time due to lack of info. As soon as I hit the scene where Moetrice visited Featherine's study in EP6 during my first playthrough, I felt confident to post it.

There's a lot of other theories that go with it but it's here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5167

That message kinda got submerged a bit until the discussion came up again:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...97#post2971597

And that went on for a page until Renall summed it up for me pretty well, and added some extra thoughts:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...39#post2971739


This Author Theory attempts to explain the structure of Umineko and I think does a bit better than just the Kakera Theory by including the message bottles and what Hachijou says about 'writing' more episodes.


... wow.. hard to believe that was more than 400 pages ago.
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Old 2010-07-13, 13:41   Link #13756
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I want to discuss the Shkanontrice Identity, because I don't think it makes a lot of sense within itself. There are ways out of the problem, but they kind of make the story stupid. I don't want to just leave it at that, of course, so here are my thoughts and concerns:

Assumptions

For the moment, let's take it on faith that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all one person, that is, there is one body which plays the role of all three. I accept no other assumptions about their nature. For our purposes, any such interpretation is conjecture. It will be addressed, but it's not considered essential to establishing the identity existence or inseparable conceptually.
Spoiler for Who Is The Original?:
Spoiler for Why Create Anyone?:
Spoiler for Does the Love Trial Make Sense?:
I am quite dissatisfied with the inadequacy of some of these issues to be resolved with the information yet presented. Particularly, who this "root" could be and what their objective is.
Hmm, well at least none of these are issues with the Shkanon theory I presented a while back, though some might lead to new branches of the theory if explored. Remember, you haven't proven a theory wrong just because there are ways to make it not work. To prove it wrong, or to prove it a bad theory, you must prove that there exists no good way to make it work. In other words, if anyone else can provide a counterexample of a theory that works, it's pointless to call the set of theories bad or stupid.

Spoiler for Who?:
Spoiler for Why?:
Spoiler for Trial:
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Old 2010-07-13, 14:12   Link #13757
Judoh
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This is all hypothetical but in terms of disorders BPD makes more sense to me than DID. For one thing people with Borderline personality disorder can have symptoms from "perceived rejection". They also make better murderers because they experience paranoia and they often have partners they're attached to in their crimes.

I don't like insane murderers either, but if you want to do something about personalities with Shkanon we can at least make it make sense.
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Old 2010-07-13, 14:13   Link #13758
Renall
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It's really annoying to argue with people who insist on everyone winning and losing any time anyone posts something speculative. It's immediately assumed that every contrary post is an attempt to completely destroy something else. I'm just thinking about this. Yeah, I said it doesn't make a lot of sense. Because it doesn't. That alone doesn't mean it's broken. It could be made to make sense, if someone would actually pull it off. Hell, if I think hard enough on it maybe I'll be the one someday. Here is my problem, and it is significant, and it is not being addressed, and saying it eight hundred times does not mean that you actually did so:

Who is this person? How much do we really know about them? Why are they important to the story? What is the significance of understanding them only through their reflected images? Why are they hiding? What are they doing that makes it so important to hide them in narrative? How can we be certain any aspects of this person are true and not projections of characters they portray? How does knowing any of this solve any problem other than the very problem it invented to justify itself?

If we accept that all three of the characters we actually know anything about are nothing more than acts put on by an unknown and - ultimately - presently unknowable entity, what can we possibly assume this person actually thinks, desires, and acts upon? Any such theory argues that there is a person hidden at the periphery. This person is not Meta-Beatrice. There is an enormous gulf of characterization between the two that is irreconcilable. By this theory there is an actual, present person, concealed and unknown, operating since the beginning.

And operating to do... what, exactly? Why did this person appear between the age of 6 to 9? Why a servant, why a female servant? Why the need for new characters and roles to take on? Whose decisions are all of these things to begin with? Are we accepting that a child was sophisticated enough to figure all this out, or was he/she being coached and groomed? To what possible end? Why was it necessary to remain a secret about it? Who knew? Does it matter who knew? Why fall in love? Was it genuine or a means to an end, or is the person confused and conflicted and/or crazy?

What was this person doing before 1986? Why was 1986 significant? Why Battler (don't give me this nonsense about his sin, the proposals of his sin are such tiny matters that even being blown out of proportion a thousand times over doesn't make sense of the things being done)? Did he need to be there or was everything already in place? Why the explosion? Why the murders? Is this entity innocent? Is this entity aware? If it's someone else, what is this entity's perspective on them? Is he/she trying to stop them, working with them, or completely ignorant?

How does this individual create closed rooms and murder scenes? How does his/her unique position permit him/her to be any better at it than anyone else? If he/she is not the killer, why is this happening? How has anyone gotten away with any of this charade?

How does red affect this person? Is he or she aware of it? Is he or she able to manipulate it? Why is this person unique and special, or are they? If Meta-Beatrice is taking advantage of his/her appearance and characterization to lie with red, why is it significant to do so? What does she gain from cheating Battler through blatant dishonesty? Why does he suddenly realize she's done it? Why does this help him understand anything? Why does he forgive her? If he forgives her, does he also forgive the entity that helped create her? Do we know he knows that entity even exists?

Did any of these people he/she portrays really exist on Rokkenjima-Prime? Did this person?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-07-13, 14:32   Link #13759
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is all hypothetical but in terms of disorders BPD makes more sense to me than DID. For one thing people with Borderline personality disorder can have symptoms from "perceived rejection". They also make better murderers because they experience paranoia and they often have partners they're attached to in their crimes.

I don't like insane murderers either, but if you want to do something about personalities with Shkanon we can at least make it make sense.

Err... no Judoh... trust me you are out of track.
Basically the "borderline" there is used because the subject has symptoms that are between neurosis and psychosis.

Borderline persons are well known for hurting themselves, often as a way to "punish" others or get their attention.
That being said as far as I know it's extremely rare for a borderline to actually kill himself or kill someone else. You'd have a lot more chances with someone who suffers from a major depression.

Personality disorders are relatively minor disorders after all.


@Renall
Too many questions. How can we discuss about something so dispersive?
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Old 2010-07-13, 14:32   Link #13760
chronotrig
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@Renall:

Okay, calm down please. I was responding to your line "There are ways out of the problem, but they kind of make the story stupid". That sort of implies that you're trying to destroy (and insult) all existing theories, does it not?

As for your questions, it is a fact that I have provided possible answers to most of them at some point in the past. True, my theory has changed a lot, and it would be helpful to write up the whole thing in it's most current, but as my previous posts on the theory should have shown, writing it up would take several dozen pages. Since I've spent nearly every waking hour of the last few weeks translating and editing, it hardly seems fair to demand that of me all at once.

The problem with making this argument is that you have a record, Renall. Dozens of times over, I've made certain points that you have then ignored, forcing me to post the same things again. Of course my theory isn't the only possible answer, but I think it describes a possible answer.
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