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Old 2010-07-14, 10:23   Link #13861
CainSonozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floofeh View Post
- Traptwins. Who's the guy here? (if there are 2 genders in the world of umineko... You never know?)
Well supposedely Zepar uses typically male pronouns (of course so does Jessica so who knows)

On that note i just barely passed the intro of Zepar and Furfur in Dawn and they said once the love test finished they would disappear. I remember someone said that the two new characters in Requiem may have finished their love test and thats why Z+F are on the cover with them. But what if They are there because the two characters are in the middle of a love test?
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:01   Link #13862
UsagiTenpura
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The new guy from arc 7 cover... has yellow eyes right? Just like Bern's furniture.
I was wondering if it wouldn't be Dine... afterall it's been forshadowed a while before, and Dine's rules includes "no love" so it seems it would fit Bernkastel's goal a lot.

I still don't really get how a girl who isn't real can be the detective and only supposedly reliable POV for arc 5, however I think I understand "why she did all these weird things". The way I see her is that she's similar to Beatrice, a collective rule more then a person. In arc 5's case she was used by everyone as a mean to make Natsuhi say the truth. Everyone's death are fake and many other scenes are faked, everyone seem to be lying together to force the truth out of Natsuhi. In that light I can understand she did all the crazy things she did, especially in a way that only allows Natsuhi to be the culprit. For arc 6, just as Beatrice was "used by Natsuhi" to cover up Kinzo's death she's also definitively "used by others" to be the representation of the murderer in most cases. I think the same could be true for Erika. Now why do others see her nontheless? In arc 5 because she's the detective I assume she's also the "incarnation of the collective trusted POV". For arc 6 we don't even know if any character has an objective POV, so even a scene with everyone talking to Kinzo and Beatrice would've been allowed.

Also some questions.
I'm not sure I read all there is about the Shannon=Kanon theories, but so far I'd like to understand how it explains a few things.
Why was creating Shannon, the first persona, created over 10 years ago, necessary?
If multiple persona = incomplete souls = furniture, then Shannon only became furniture when Kanon was born?
How does Genji being also a furniture fits in all of that?
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:26   Link #13863
Renall
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The best explanation for Genji is that Ronove's personality is closer to his true self and the stoic, unflinching Genji is his "butler persona." In that sense, Genji is the "furniture" to the real person, who is more of a playful guy (or used to be).

Kumasawa and Virgilia are a little trickier. Since Kumasawa doesn't call herself furniture, you could say her existing personality is the "real" Kumasawa, and that if she was Virgilia/Pre-Beatrice, that that was her "furniture" persona.
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:28   Link #13864
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Okay I tried to analyze Zepar and Furfur pattern of speech. This is what I found:

Furfur

1) Uses "watashi", but always in plural form, so it's "watashitachi".

2) Uses the particle "wa" very often, which is exclusive for females.

3) Uses the expression "kashira" which is only used by females.

4) Uses the particle "nano" and "no" as a question mark which are usually used by girls or kids.


Zepar

1) Used "warera" (us) once.

2) uses frequently "boku" in the plural form "bokutachi" or "bokura". Usually "boku" is for males, but it was seen before being used by tomboyish girls.
Used "boku" in the singular form at least 3 times.

3) uses frequently the particles "ne" and "sa", which are neutral.

4) Used the question marker "kai" instead of "ka". This is usually done by males. Zepar is also seen saying "dousurundai?" instead of "dousurunda?" Generally the addition of the "i" in questions is done by males.

5) Zepar uses "kana" instead of the feminine "kashira". "Kana" is however neutral.

6) often Zepar uses "-nda" instead of the simply "da". This is an even more informal way of speaking, it's not ladylike but it's not particularly manly either.


When talking together

1) they almost always use "boku" in the plural form, so "bokutachi" or "bokura".
2) They used "warera" once.



In conclusion...
Furfur definitely speaks in a refined and ladylike manner.
Zepar is more crude, a lot more informal and tomboyish. However not any of the markers that only a male would use are used by Zepar. "Ore" or particles like "ze" and "zo" are totally absent. If it wasn't said that Zepar and Furfur are of different sex everyone would simply believe that Zepar is a tomboy.

When they talk together, every peculiar pattern of speech tend to disappear, with the exception of the subject which becomes "bokutachi" for both of them.
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:32   Link #13865
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Out of curiosity, are there any particular feminine speech patterns affected by homosexual males in Japan (or stereotypically believed)? I realize that's a touchy subject, but it's relevant given Zepar and Furfur's TIPS, and the possibility of confusing the issue on ryukishi's part.
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:34   Link #13866
Jan-Poo
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I'm not totally sure, but the usual "okama" just speaks in a ladylike manner... like Furfur...
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:40   Link #13867
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not totally sure, but the usual "okama" just speaks in a ladylike manner... like Furfur...
Exactly what I was wondering.

So Furfur could be a refined lady or a stereotypical gay man, and Zepar could be a boy or a tomboy?
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Old 2010-07-14, 11:55   Link #13868
rogerpepitone
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Well:
Furfur == 34 == Sa Yo
Zepar == 16 (Is there a connection to Yo Shi Ya?)

Kanon is depicted as being offense, Shannon as defense.
Zepar is listed as granted defense, Furfur as granting offense.
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Old 2010-07-14, 12:05   Link #13869
Jan-Poo
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Oh I didn't notice that.... this is reversed... Zepar who should be connected to Kanon by the number is granting the defensive power typical of Shannon... and Furfur who's connected to Shannon by the number grants the offensive power typical of Kanon...

It looks like Ryuukishi took good care into mixing the cards.


Quote:
Exactly what I was wondering.

So Furfur could be a refined lady or a stereotypical gay man, and Zepar could be a boy or a tomboy?
Yeah but... I guess you could say that "obviously the male one is Zepar" or "If it's a trap it must be the less obvious".
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Old 2010-07-14, 16:31   Link #13870
TTR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Well:
Furfur == 34 == Sa Yo
Zepar == 16 (Is there a connection to Yo Shi Ya?)

Kanon is depicted as being offense, Shannon as defense.
Zepar is listed as granted defense, Furfur as granting offense.
Yo = 4, Shi = 4, Ya = 8, so 4+4+8=16?
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Old 2010-07-14, 17:02   Link #13871
winter 923
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So Kanons real name is a number in a number? a wordplay in a wordplay? it could just be because of the 3 syllables but also feeds the Shkannon theory.

Wait who claims that she is the 19th person? isn't hachi 8? the 19th person is Maria.

Spoiler for long rant about Maria:


Spoiler for rant about Battler:


After reading about R07 BOMB interview these are questions from me to you because i am incompetent[!] and actually are already Answers.
I'm more interested in the story and the why's instead of the how's. Worked out fine in Higurashi.

Last edited by winter 923; 2010-07-14 at 18:04.
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:01   Link #13872
Number1-Syaoran-Fan
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I think Kanon was just a split personality of Shannon's and that's why one of them had to die if they wanted to be with the one they love. Also, it explains how Kanon got out of the closed room. If he was no longer Kanon and simply Shannon, then Kanon no longer exists in that room. I mean, its a bit wierd that Battler/Erika never saw the two of them at the same time.

Plus, it explains the final two red truths. One red truth said that there were 18 HUMANS (Kanon and Shannon both became human - not furniture) and the other said there were 17 PEOPLE. I think this is because Kanon and Shannon were two personalities but shared the same body, meaning there were 18 humans, but only 17 people.

With this idea, I think that Beatrice is another of Shannon's personalities. The reasons for this are that when Shannon won the love trial, Kanon AND Beatrice both disappered. Also, it explains why Beatrice was also said to be less than a complete person. It is also said that Shannon inquired often about Battler when he was gone for the 6 years. She created Beatrice in the image of his ideal person because he told her that domesticated women aren't his type.

Finally, Kanon states that Kumasawa is like a mother to him, and therefore to Shannon, which is quite similar to Beatrice's relationship to Virgillia.

Sorry bout the rant :P
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:29   Link #13873
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number1-Syaoran-Fan View Post
I think Kanon was just a split personality of Shannon's and that's why one of them had to die if they wanted to be with the one they love. Also, it explains how Kanon got out of the closed room. If he was no longer Kanon and simply Shannon, then Kanon no longer exists in that room. I mean, its a bit wierd that Battler/Erika never saw the two of them at the same time.
Weird? It's weird that Erika climbs around on the walls of a mansion in the middle of a raging storm to place duct tape on windows. It's weird that Kinzo would climb (or jump) out his window to go for a stroll in a raging storm. It's weird that he would build a mansion in the middle of a forest just to trap the ghost of his beloved. It's weird that the Ushiromiya family seems to be terrified of looking in closets. To me, the fact that two people never see two servants at the same time isn't all that weird. In fact, with such a large mansion and additional guest house, a servant team consisting of two children, a chef and an old man and woman seems kind of small. I'm not surprised they were rarely seen together.
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:41   Link #13874
Leafsnail
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Well, it's not "rarely seen together", it's "Never seen together, including at times (such as the second episode first twilight discovery) when they really should've been". And, since Shannon was on duty in the guesthouse during the night of ep6, couldn't she at least have popped in on the cousins to say hello?
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:50   Link #13875
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Well, it's not "rarely seen together", it's "Never seen together, including at times (such as the second episode first twilight discovery) when they really should've been". And, since Shannon was on duty in the guesthouse during the night of ep6, couldn't she at least have popped in on the cousins to say hello?
Well, Battler and Erika never see the two together, but outside reliable narration they are seen together. They are present for Goldsmith's introduction in Episode 4, are both together when Erika announces her culprit in Episode 5, Shannon shows up to help Kanon when he's dueling Maria in Episode 6, the two of them chat with Genji in Episode 1 shorty before the first twilight... there's plenty of times when they're shown together. Yes, never in reliable narration, but my point is that it's perfectly logical for a couple people to never see two servants at the same time in an estate the size of the one on Rokkenjima, especially when servants are supposed to assist when necessary, then disappear until they're needed again.
And to answer your question, perhaps she was too occupied setting up things for the prank the family planned to play on Erika. After all, she is a servant. People like her are useful for setting up things around the mansion.
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Old 2010-07-14, 20:30   Link #13876
Renall
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Well, Battler and Erika never see the two together, but outside reliable narration they are seen together. They are present for Goldsmith's introduction in Episode 4, are both together when Erika announces her culprit in Episode 5, Shannon shows up to help Kanon when he's dueling Maria in Episode 6, the two of them chat with Genji in Episode 1 shorty before the first twilight... there's plenty of times when they're shown together. Yes, never in reliable narration, but my point is that it's perfectly logical for a couple people to never see two servants at the same time in an estate the size of the one on Rokkenjima, especially when servants are supposed to assist when necessary, then disappear until they're needed again.
And to answer your question, perhaps she was too occupied setting up things for the prank the family planned to play on Erika. After all, she is a servant. People like her are useful for setting up things around the mansion.
Battler does see the two together... in ep5, when he's not the detective.

With Erika, if you want to get technical, based solely on her narration she hasn't really seen much of anybody.
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Old 2010-07-14, 20:41   Link #13877
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I might be wrong, but I think Battler sees Shannon and Kanon together in the Anime's first episode. It's the anime though so...
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Old 2010-07-14, 21:24   Link #13878
Erika Furudo
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Hello, everyone. I decided to join in on the discussion and share a theory that came to mind regarding Kanon's rescue of Battler. I spoke to it with several others earlier, and it seemed to be a good idea, so I wanted to hear your opinions and see if there's anything that can poke a hole in it. My apologies ahead of time if someone has already thought of this, or whatnot; this topic is quite long, but I saw a few posts recently that suggest it hasn't been considered.

This theory ignores the possibility of Shannon and Kanon being two personalities in one body, and the 'personality = person' speculation.

I believe that Kanon and Shannon are two seperate people, and to understand this theory, let's begin by examining Erika's confirmation of the locations of characters. In short, the fact that she confirmed these locations before sealing the rooms.

George, Hideyoshi, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the room next over.
Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Kanon, Gohda and Genji were in the cousin's room.

This only applies to the point before the rooms were sealed. Therefore;

While the room was being sealed, Kanon escaped from the contrary opening of the room; if the door was sealed first, he escaped from the window. If the windows were sealed first, he escaped by the door.

Afterwards, he rescued Battler, hid in the closet, and killed himself for some reason.


Kanon did not 'exist' in the guest room any more than Kinzo 'exists' on Rokkenjima. This is how I theorize Kanon to have escaped from the closed room of the cousin's room, even though all seals pertaining to it were intact; he slipped out before the sealing was complete, so there was no need for him to break them in order to get out.

Erika could not have instantly sealed both rooms by herself; magic does not exist, after all, so she would have to do one section at a time, and no matter what order that was in, that chance to escape would exist.

What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-07-14, 21:59   Link #13879
Jan-Poo
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You forgot the possibility that Erika sealed the windows in advance, then went inside the room with Hideyoshi and the others and then after she left sealed the door.

The sealing of the rooms is done with a sort of retroactive power, Erika just told Battler she wanted to seal the rooms, so according to his promise he let her retroactively seal the room. How adjusted that on the gameboard is a matter that can be solved in several ways, the way I just told you is one.

So in the end I doubt that it went that way, because in that case Erika could definitely see the problem in her logic. Not to mention that when she asked everyone's position the two rooms were already sealed. So even supposing that there was a time in which kanon could have escaped, he couldn't possibly have done that because after all the seals were placed he was still in the cousin's room.


Kinzo/Kanon is still a better theory to solve this issue. Not to mention it has the advantage of solving an EP4 mystery at the same time.

Kanon's death to solve the "escape" from the guestroom is a known theory and so far it seems to be the only way to explain it without shkanon.
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Old 2010-07-14, 22:10   Link #13880
Judoh
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It's not like this trick hasn't been used before though. It was used with George, Krauss and Natsuhi in episode 3. You just need an accomplice to let Kanon out before the seals are put up, which is stated to be at the time of the logic error via Dlanor.
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