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Old 2010-07-14, 22:14   Link #13881
Jan-Poo
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Th seals of the two rooms in the guesthouse weren't set at the time of the logic error °°
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Old 2010-07-14, 22:14   Link #13882
Erika Furudo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The sealing of the rooms is done with a sort of retroactive power, Erika just told Battler she wanted to seal the rooms, so according to his promise he let her retroactively seal the room. How adjusted that on the gameboard is a matter that can be solved in several ways, the way I just told you is one.
Her getting the duct tape was before they split up into two rooms; in fact, it was immediately before. And yes, I suppose you could say she retroactively sealed the windows, but there was no announcement that she did so, and that seemed somewhat necessary for all retroactive moves to be announced and as such when they affected the progression of the game board.

Furthermore, if you're suggesting she retroactively sealed the rooms before they were inside... how does that work? It doesn't matter if it's retroactively done or not, if they're inside; the process still has to be the same. It doesn't become an instant action, it just means that 'Erika actually did this before'. The chance would still exist for someone to escape.

I don't think she would waste two rooms worth the duct tape on windows that weren't even guaranteed to be used beforehand. But I can't deny the possibility, even if there was no foreshadowing or hints suggesting that she sealed the windows beforehand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Not to mention that when she asked everyone's position the two rooms were already sealed.
Incorrect. It was before she sealed the rooms. You may check this yourself in game, if you desire.
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Old 2010-07-14, 22:27   Link #13883
Jan-Poo
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That's right she said it after, but the sealing is retroactive. that means the rooms were already sealed.
You already know that when Erika said she sealed Battler's room, she didn't do that at that time. She did it before.

You don't understand how the dynamic of how the retroactively move would have worked.
It is a fact that Battler granted her retroactive power. The sealing of Battler's room prove it.

1) Erika sealed the two windows from outside. She has done that before anything happened. Remember that time when she checked the tape and she noticed it wasn't any good? With the retroactive the tape became "good enough", that's when Erika sealed the windows.
2) Erika skillfully managed to make the adults divide the persons among the two rooms. It has been said from the beginning that this was her idea.
3) Erika left the next room over with an excuse. At that point she had both doors in front of her.
4) While she had both doors in front of her, she asked Battler to confirm everyone's position.
5) She completed the sealing of the rooms by sealing the doors.

or actually she sealed the doors even before asking Battler's their position.

Erika was granted retroactive power to seal the rooms. If she didn't use that power, then she was pretty stupid.
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Old 2010-07-14, 22:51   Link #13884
Ssol
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No, Erika Furudo (on the forum) is correct. I've said this before. Battler asked Erika to advance the game and she agreed to it. After that, the rooms in the guesthouse where sealed.

Go back and look at that point. There is even a sound effect indicating that the game was unpaused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is what I have regarding that. Keep in mind that I do not know who posted this. It's just a copy/paste of what someone else posted on this forum and I don't have a link to any source. But it describes the B0mb part at the end in this one.

Spoiler for space:
Ah, thank you. I like the original Taiwan theory and Jan-Poo's theory better though. The reason is because I don't like the idea of Kinzo writing the epitaph with the idea of a bomb in mind.
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Old 2010-07-14, 22:54   Link #13885
Erika Furudo
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No, I understood exactly what you were saying. And I understand how it would make sense if she did. However, I am saying that she didn't announce a retroactive move or even suggest that one was being made there, despite every other retroactive move being announced. It would also be impossible to retroactively seal the cousin's room and the room next over completely; and if she were sealing the windows retroactively, she would have the obligation to say so.

Rather, I'm more curious if there are any facts or red truths that deny my theory; not unknown maybes. I will fully admit that if she sealed the windows before confirming their locations, my theory does not work; however, there was nothing in game to suggest that she did this.
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Old 2010-07-14, 23:00   Link #13886
winter 923
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i do not like the Shkannon theory but i have to accept the fact. Shannon and Kanon both get revived often, that is not possible except when faking the death. Also Kanons body is never found in 3 out of 6 Episodes while the Game is still running that is Shannon simply killing off that personality, in the other 3 Episodes it is fake/something gone wrong.

Also it was stated in red that both rooms are sealed as soon as Erika left the room. It is GUARANTEED. Something is strange actually: Erika is known as a counting piece (TIPS of Kinzo EP6) so Erika can not "re-kill" since she is with everyone else other than Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo in the cousins room?
Spoiler for spam:

It is just telling you to not trust red.

Something bothering me with Shkannon is: did anyone read or saw Fight Club? or any Book where someone got 2 Personalitys? If its an Disorder then she is sick and can not just simply kill off a personality on her free will. If she plays both Personas knowingly then why? there is also a chance that she is Beatrice. 3 Personas. WHEN exactly does she sleep? She is doing double shifts since 3 years (they might not work everytime together but she still get twice as often called to the island)
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Old 2010-07-15, 00:13   Link #13887
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Well, I just finished EP6, and something has been crossing my mind for a while now: I think Shannon, like Kinzo, is already dead prior to the beggining of all games. This might explain why both couples (Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica) can't exist "at the same time" because Kanon, for unknown reasons, is impersonating Shannon. And we can't have some kind of weird love triangle going on, eh.

Sorry if that was a little confusing. I suck at explaining stuff >___>
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Old 2010-07-15, 01:00   Link #13888
Judoh
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I'm wondering if there will be a classic culprit confession in the final episode or not or if Ryukishi will leave it open for the readers to figure out.

If there is one it'd be awesome if the confession was completely in red text. Just a big paragraph of red on how he did it and why in each episode. That would go down in history probably.
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Old 2010-07-15, 01:02   Link #13889
Marion
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm wondering if there will be a classic culprit confession in the final episode or not or if Ryusksihi will leave it open for the readers to figure out.

If there is one it'd be awesome if the confession was completely in red text. That would go down in history probably.
I think doing it in all red would be too direct. Ryukishi already said he doesn't intend to spell out every last detail like he did in Higurashi and putting the confession in red would do just that.
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Old 2010-07-15, 01:09   Link #13890
Metaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm wondering if there will be a classic culprit confession in the final episode or not or if Ryukishi will leave it open for the readers to figure out.

If there is one it'd be awesome if the confession was completely in red text. Just a big paragraph of red on how he did it and why in each episode. That would go down in history probably.
Nah, I don't think so. Umineko isn't meant to be that way. So even after the lasp EP, maybe the culprit will only be suggested.
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Old 2010-07-15, 03:32   Link #13891
Verg Avesta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm wondering if there will be a classic culprit confession in the final episode or not or if Ryukishi will leave it open for the readers to figure out.

If there is one it'd be awesome if the confession was completely in red text. Just a big paragraph of red on how he did it and why in each episode. That would go down in history probably.
Of course, they would all have to be gathered in the Accusing Parlor.

...

Okay, on a more serious note, there's just little something that came to my mind while re-reading episode 6. During the last scenes, Beato says to Battler that the whole game was created so she could "Be with him". In other words, should we take that as that the whole murder/epitaph mess is just somebody's way of trying to get Battler's attention, through a unique and nigh-impossible to solve murder-mystery? It is also said, by Battler in episode 5, that Beatrice "Bet everything on a almost impossible miracle", or something similiar. Could this all be taken as that this "Beatrice" planned this all, hoping for that miniscule possibility that Battler would solve the crime, stop the "bomb", and thus "find" her?
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Old 2010-07-15, 03:41   Link #13892
Metaler
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Of course, they would all have to be gathered in the Accusing Parlor.

...

Okay, on a more serious note, there's just little something that came to my mind while re-reading episode 6. During the last scenes, Beato says to Battler that the whole game was created so she could "Be with him". In other words, should we take that as that the whole murder/epitaph mess is just somebody's way of trying to get Battler's attention, through a unique and nigh-impossible to solve murder-mystery? It is also said, by Battler in episode 5, that Beatrice "Bet everything on a almost impossible miracle", or something similiar. Could this all be taken as that this "Beatrice" planned this all, hoping for that miniscule possibility that Battler would solve the crime, stop the "bomb", and thus "find" her?
The thought had crossed my mind too. I wonder if it's related to Battler's sin o-o
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Old 2010-07-15, 04:57   Link #13893
winter 923
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okey after rereading some more (parts of EP 6,4,1) i have 1 Question
How accurate are the conversations in the magic scenes? at least in ep 6 i found some very accurate ones. While i doubt George would discuss his engagement with Shannon to Eva before she fakes her death Maria is actually agreeing to get killed so she can show Erika a closed room.

Anyway about my theroy about Maria:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...68#post3140368

Spoiler for i found more about Maria:


Spoiler for something more about Battler:


what does this tell us about the Ages? i do not know and are too sleepy to research. There is a theory where Jessica might also be 19 and Adopted afterall at least something is not clear about her birth (something about a Diary duno will check later). Erika wears Clothes from Jessica. No Onewinged Eagle to be seen. but then this would be too obvious.

19 is defenitly the way to go.

Spoiler for the complices are:



something i found in the Web but is already known ofc
Spoiler for EP6 who are you R07:



Edit:
Spoiler for Battler's sin just for the hell of it:

Last edited by winter 923; 2010-07-15 at 06:00.
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Old 2010-07-15, 06:17   Link #13894
Leafsnail
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I don't buy the "Kanon is dead so he doesn't exist", actually.

Erika was only able to say that Kinzo didn't exist since she specified beforehand that all the following red text referred to a living Kinzo. Battler did not do this with Kanon.
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Old 2010-07-15, 06:55   Link #13895
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I don't buy the "Kanon is dead so he doesn't exist", actually.

Erika was only able to say that Kinzo didn't exist since she specified beforehand that all the following red text referred to a living Kinzo. Battler did not do this with Kanon.
Incorrect.
It was stated several times that "Kinzo doesn't exist" without the red premise of a living Kinzo. There is a blatant mention of that in Episode 5 (Dlanor mentions it as a fact, unrelated to a possible living Kinzo red argument).
Also, Erika was trying to force Natsuhi to say that Kinzo doesn't exist, not that a "living kinzo doesn't exist".

Another proof: we know by fact Kinzo's corpse is present on Rokkenjima. Yet he is NOT counted in the "global number of people on Rokkenjima". Even offtopic mention of "Kinzo doesn't exist" should factor the corpse, but it does not.

Ergo, the dead simply does -not- exist for the red.
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Old 2010-07-15, 07:43   Link #13896
Sniesk
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I hava a question for those who support the Shkannon theory.
In ep5 there a scene with everyone, including Erika in the same room. Since Battler is not the Detective, it is not strange that we can see 2 different people as Shannon and Kanon. Howerver Erika is already the detective, so she should know right away thanks to her "true sight" that there are no Kanon and Shannon but just one single person. Then how come that in ep6 she clearly doesn't know anything about it?
Also, even if Battler is not the detective, why is he lying now about them?
I'll explain myself better. Being the detective doesn't mean that you cannot be mistaken on something, it just mean that you can't decieve the reader about what you see. The only "bonus" of not being the detective (aside from the fact that you may be the culpirt) is that you can tell lies about what you see. So when Battler "saw" the 2 of them in that room, he was not deceived by their disguise, his perspective was just lying about them, i mean Shannon may be skilled with her disguises but i find hard to be able to appear as two different person. But why is that he lied this time? He should be the same Battler we know from ep1-4, unless he really is the baby from 19 years ago. Same thing goes for when he saw Kinzo's ghost. Why did he decide to lie?
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Old 2010-07-15, 07:52   Link #13897
Metaler
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
I hava a question for those who support the Shkannon theory.
In ep5 there a scene with everyone, including Erika in the same room. Since Battler is not the Detective, it is not strange that we can see 2 different people as Shannon and Kanon. Howerver Erika is already the detective, so she should know right away thanks to her "true sight" that there are no Kanon and Shannon but just one single person. Then how come that in ep6 she clearly doesn't know anything about it?
Also, even if Battler is not the detective, why is he lying now about them?
I'll explain myself better. Being the detective doesn't mean that you cannot be mistaken on something, it just mean that you can't decieve the reader about what you see. The only "bonus" of not being the detective (aside from the fact that you may be the culpirt) is that you can tell lies about what you see. So when Battler "saw" the 2 of them in that room, he was not deceived by their disguise, his perspective was just lying about them, i mean Shannon may be skilled with her disguises but i find hard to be able to appear as two different person. But why is that he lied this time? He should be the same Battler we know from ep1-4, unless he really is the baby from 19 years ago. Same thing goes for when he saw Kinzo's ghost. Why did he decide to lie?
As much as I believe in Shkanon, I have to agree that the fact that both of them were in the same room as Erika poses quite the problem. One explanation is that the scene was not viewed from Erika's perspective, or something like that, but I can't help but feel that's an Ass Pull. It just doesn't sound right.
But anyways, I assume that's one of the reasons the Shkanon theory died down a little after EP5. Although EP6 brought it up again.
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Old 2010-07-15, 08:06   Link #13898
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Incorrect.
It was stated several times that "Kinzo doesn't exist" without the red premise of a living Kinzo. There is a blatant mention of that in Episode 5 (Dlanor mentions it as a fact, unrelated to a possible living Kinzo red argument).
Also, Erika was trying to force Natsuhi to say that Kinzo doesn't exist, not that a "living kinzo doesn't exist".

Another proof: we know by fact Kinzo's corpse is present on Rokkenjima. Yet he is NOT counted in the "global number of people on Rokkenjima". Even offtopic mention of "Kinzo doesn't exist" should factor the corpse, but it does not.

Ergo, the dead simply does -not- exist for the red.
I suppose... but that means that the way of getting Battler out of the room had nothing to do with Beatrice's heart, and was just a cheap trick. It also means Erika missed an unbelievably obvious ploy, which seems kindof wrong.
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Old 2010-07-15, 08:11   Link #13899
Jan-Poo
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@Sniek

As I said several times, there is no theory so far that can completely overcome this problem. Assuming the absolute objectivity of Erika would deny both shkanon and ghosterika theories. Actually, since Erika is seen in the same room with other 17 people in EP5, you just can't possibly find any way to explain the last red text of EP6.
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Old 2010-07-15, 08:52   Link #13900
Leafsnail
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Well, since Kanon was behind Gohda (ie in a place where Erika wouldn't see him) that could allow for 17 people and preserve her objectivity.
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