AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-15, 15:36   Link #13921
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I'm really not so fond of the idea that shkanon can be true in one episode and not in another. If it's true it must be a core truth, something that can't really be changed by the Game Master.

The same goes for ghosterika. If she doesn't exist then that means it is impossible for her to exist in Rokkenjima, else I really can't see why she would only appear as a ghost.

That being said we are all facing a big dilemma of how 18 people could be seen in the same room in EP5 despite the fact such a thing was denied in red and despite the fact that a detective was present.

chronotrig believes to have the solution to this problem, however it doesn't seem very probable to me.

Another more common belief is that Erika's absolute perspective is simply a lie. While it sounds less far-fetched to me, it's still something that completely defies everything that has been told to us and that would make me question the credibility of anything that happens in the metaworld.

Do anyone have a better idea? Personally I'm kinda at loss in this case.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 15:52   Link #13922
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
I really don't see where you guys are coming from on this. On the one hand, you admit that EP5 makes no sense as presented and that a lot of the truth is hidden or twisted. On the other hand, you claim that certain statements must be true no matter what, even though I've shown things that could point to the contrary and you have shown no proof.

Here's yet another possibility for getting around this: when was meta-Erika created?
It's possible that Bern was able to put piece-Erika on the board, but there's a lot of evidence suggesting that it was Lambda. If so, when was Bern given control of Erika's piece? Do we know for a fact that Lambda gave her control as soon as Erika washed up? The first time we even see meta-Erika is well after the gold has been discovered, and long after the scene where everyone appeared in the parlor.

So, what if Bern was given control of Erika sometime after the parlor scene? The opening scenes, including Erika's dramatic entrance, were shown to her in the same way Battler saw them. In fact, if this weren't the case, it would mean that the first chapter or so of the replay would have been mostly original material for Battler's benefit, since Erika is clearly shown from an outside perspective. I'd hardly call that a replay.

In this case, Bern has already seen the parlor scene just as we have (meaning that the replay was actually fair for this part, hardly an ridiculous assumption). She saw it from Battler's perspective, and saw Kanon and Shannon together. By this point, it would not have been in the least bit stupid of her to assume that this was the total list of people on the island. So, in the future, she had no need to worry about problems like that.

In other words, Bern's assumption was stupid only if nearly every person who denies Shkanon based on that scene is similarly stupid. Why should she force Lambda to go back and check everything again with Erika? What reason could Battler possibly have for lying about Shannon and Kanon both being there? Has the thought of Shkanon even crossed her mind? (Let's be fair now; the vast majority of readers heard of Shkanon from someone else instead of thinking it up themselves.)
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 16:00   Link #13923
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
On the one hand, you admit that EP5 makes no sense as presented and that a lot of the truth is hidden or twisted
I hope you are not talking to me, because if you are you really didn't understand my point.

Anyway again I can't accept this interpretation. Bern knew that Battler wasn't the detective anymore since the beginning. Even if she didn't know she still learned about it later and what's more important even Meta-Erika learned about that.

Again you need to assume that Erika's level of intellect is below that of the average player of Umineko.

Well that apart your theory is simply devoid of any real clue to support it.

And BTW why you want at all costs to make us accept it as truth when you are not sure yourself about its validity?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 16:03   Link #13924
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
I'll try making a poorly drawn diagram to show what I mean.

Spoiler for Horrible diagram:


Kanon is described by Battler as being behind Gohda.

Now, if he's somewhere where Battler would be able to see him and Erika wouldn't (due to Gohda's large frame) then Erika would find nothing odd about the way Lambda is telling the story. However, she won't have actually witnessed Kanon with her own eyes, and Kanon might not be in that position at all (with everyone else thinking he's just out busy in the garden).
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 16:05   Link #13925
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And BTW why you want at all costs to make us accept it as truth when you are not sure yourself about its validity?
Exactly my point. I'm not telling you to accept this as the truth. Nowhere have I offered proof that this is the answer. All I'm saying is that to you cannot prove that Erika must have been able to figure out Shkanon. In fact, if Shkanon is true, it is impossible that Erika found out about it in EP5, as EP6 shows. So, if Shkanon is true, it proves that Lambda must have had some way to keep Shkanon a secret from Bern, or at least Erika. Since that would have been pretty much Lambda's only goal (she wasn't trying to win), then it should be no surprise that she succeeded in it.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 16:24   Link #13926
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'll try making a poorly drawn diagram to show what I mean.

Spoiler for Horrible diagram:


Kanon is described by Battler as being behind Gohda.

Now, if he's somewhere where Battler would be able to see him and Erika wouldn't (due to Gohda's large frame) then Erika would find nothing odd about the way Lambda is telling the story. However, she won't have actually witnessed Kanon with her own eyes, and Kanon might not be in that position at all (with everyone else thinking he's just out busy in the garden).
Possibly... but Erika has photographic memory. She should remember exactly what she has seen and what she didn't see.
Seeing everyone in a room except one person is suspicious enough.

In addition Erika is depicted as being in the same place with Shannon and Kanon in other instances.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Exactly my point. I'm not telling you to accept this as the truth. Nowhere have I offered proof that this is the answer. All I'm saying is that to you cannot prove that Erika must have been able to figure out Shkanon. In fact, if Shkanon is true, it is impossible that Erika found out about it in EP5, as EP6 shows. So, if Shkanon is true, it proves that Lambda must have had some way to keep Shkanon a secret from Bern, or at least Erika. Since that would have been pretty much Lambda's only goal (she wasn't trying to win), then it should be no surprise that she succeeded in it.

I have never said that there is no explanation to this mystery. I simply said that I don't find your explanation probable. And If you noticed, I asked for other interpretations. If I really thought there was no explanation at all I wouldn't ask for one.

I'm quite sure there is one, but it doesn't have to be yours, and it isn't certain at all that we can find it before Ryuukishi himself will clarify this point.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 16:47   Link #13927
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
I cannot accept the notion that Erika's piece-existence, whatever it might be, was handed over to Bern at a particular time and place and that she was in no way suspicious of any events which may have transpired before that point. Bern does not play fair, and she does not trust Lambda.

People cling to the "replay" notion as though it's provable that the replay is not an exact reproduction. While it's certainly possible it isn't, it's equally possible that it is as accurate a representation of the game up to that point as Lambda is able to make it. And I don't think a deliberate inaccuracy or perspective trick would have escaped the notice of Battler, Erika, or Bern, especially in the lattermost case where we know that she (if no one else) saw the original events and the replay.

I think you might be able to slip something past her once. Twice? She's pretty sharp. Maybe not infallible, but I think it's a stretch to think she wouldn't question a scene where Lambda declares everyone on the island is present with a conspicuous absence of numbers.

So can Piece-Erika's perspective be accessed even if the narrative doesn't rely on it, or not? I'm not denying that Battler's perspective might be falsified, but if it were, there is no way that Shkanon would have escaped the notice of either Erika or Bernkastel. If that's true, there is likewise no way they would have been bamboozled by it in ep6.

That's not to say an alternative doesn't exist, if Bern or Erika can have a plausible motivation to allow Battler to be presented with a falsified replay that neither objects to.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 17:26   Link #13928
Metaler
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So can Piece-Erika's perspective be accessed even if the narrative doesn't rely on it, or not? I'm not denying that Battler's perspective might be falsified, but if it were, there is no way that Shkanon would have escaped the notice of either Erika or Bernkastel. If that's true, there is likewise no way they would have been bamboozled by it in ep6.
This is exactly why I have my doubts about Shkanon. One can't help but wonder why Erika or Bern never brought up said theory in EP5 or maybe even EP6. In fact, maybe Shkanon has already been denied, and we're just thinking about it too much. lol
Metaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 17:39   Link #13929
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Well, it'd probably be Lambda doing her best to ensure that neither Bern nor Erika realise about it.

You might say "You can't trick Erika" but... she's actually rather careless, in some ways. After all, she let 6 non-dead bodies slip past her in episode 5. And 6 fake deaths slip past her in episode 6 until she retroactively killed them. If she received the red truth "Everyone is in this room" she probably isn't gonna bother to check that all 18 people are accounted for.
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 17:42   Link #13930
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So can Piece-Erika's perspective be accessed even if the narrative doesn't rely on it, or not? I'm not denying that Battler's perspective might be falsified, but if it were, there is no way that Shkanon would have escaped the notice of either Erika or Bernkastel. If that's true, there is likewise no way they would have been bamboozled by it in ep6.
You say this again and again, but you still have no evidence. If I want to prove that a theory is the correct one, then the burden of proof is on me. Similarly, if you want to prove a theory of mine wrong, the burden of proof is on you. You have made an argument based on assumptions that you haven't proven. I hope you realize that.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 17:50   Link #13931
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That being said we are all facing a big dilemma of how 18 people could be seen in the same room in EP5 despite the fact such a thing was denied in red and despite the fact that a detective was present.

chronotrig believes to have the solution to this problem, however it doesn't seem very probable to me.

Another more common belief is that Erika's absolute perspective is simply a lie. While it sounds less far-fetched to me, it's still something that completely defies everything that has been told to us and that would make me question the credibility of anything that happens in the metaworld.

Do anyone have a better idea? Personally I'm kinda at loss in this case.
I've been getting more and more convinced that my multi-layer world idea is correct, because it makes it so easy to understand what happened here. Erika's perspective wasn't a lie at all -- there really were 18 people in the parlor, on the layer in which she exists. Her layer obeys the Knox commandments so everything she sees is true with respect to that layer due to her detective authority.

On the underlying layer, there are only 17 people, one of whom was playing the role of the character "Erika". That character was created by somebody, probably Piece Battler on the phone with Jessica, for the game they were going to play. However, neither of those facts matter to Erika's perspective because they apply to a level of reality she doesn't exist on. What she sees is the truth of the game that the "more real" people are playing. Bern never realized what was going on because she thinks the board only consists of a real world and lies by the game master, and has no idea a middle layer of truth exists at all.

Now if only I could come up with a consistent way of prying the red truths from the two layers apart, it might be possible to move forward from there...
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 17:59   Link #13932
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
I just thought of something. About the last few lines in the epitaph for praising the wise.

Quote:
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
Couldn't this just be mean to revive the memory of people who died? In other words an incentive to find the truth? You know instead of literally reviving by faking your death?

Quote:
One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.
and couldn't this mean to put the legend of the witch to rest so we can find the truth instead of blaming it on something occult?

I don't have an interpretation for resurrecting the lost love, but I thought if the other lines were metaphors maybe this could be too.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:00   Link #13933
Metaler
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I've been getting more and more convinced that my multi-layer world idea is correct, because it makes it so easy to understand what happened here. Erika's perspective wasn't a lie at all -- there really were 18 people in the parlor, on the layer in which she exists. Her layer obeys the Knox commandments so everything she sees is true with respect to that layer due to her detective authority.

On the underlying layer, there are only 17 people, one of whom was playing the role of the character "Erika". That character was created by somebody, probably Piece Battler on the phone with Jessica, for the game they were going to play. However, neither of those facts matter to Erika's perspective because they apply to a level of reality she doesn't exist on. What she sees is the truth of the game that the "more real" people are playing. Bern never realized what was going on because she thinks the board only consists of a real world and lies by the game master, and has no idea a middle layer of truth exists at all.
That's a nice theory. It explains why Erika is the 18th person when it was already stated in red that there are no more than 17 people. But now I wonder if more than one person plays the role of Erika. I mean, is it possible that people change roles from one scene to the next?
Metaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:01   Link #13934
LaplaceNoMa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 26
I still can't understand how Shkannon can get past the last riddle of ep6.
It was stated clearly that three bodies have entered the room and only one left the room, as well as only the person can use his name
LaplaceNoMa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:04   Link #13935
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You say this again and again, but you still have no evidence. If I want to prove that a theory is the correct one, then the burden of proof is on me. Similarly, if you want to prove a theory of mine wrong, the burden of proof is on you. You have made an argument based on assumptions that you haven't proven. I hope you realize that.
You haven't argued it because you have no way to reconcile it. It's not your fault, I don't either. No existing theory really explains it short of a hardline Author Theory "The author says the meta-world characters behaved like this, I don't gotta go into why."

That aside, the burden most assuredly is on a person who believes Shkanon to be true to reconcile Erika's perspective problems in ep5 and ep6 alike. Every explanation I've seen is inconsistent at best and a dodge at worst. There exists, at present, no satisfying way in any theory to why Erika can't see that there are only 17 people present in ep5 yet can at the same time view events not depicted by anyone in the narrative in ep6.

It's a flat contradiction. To everyone's theory. It is intensely problematic.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:06   Link #13936
Metaler
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I still can't understand how Shkannon can get past the last riddle of ep6.
It was stated clearly that three bodies have entered the room and only one left the room, as well as only the person can use his name
Well, if Shkanon is true, then one person can claim the names of both Shannon and Kanon, but I don't think that explains everything. I'm as confused as you are. ^_^''
Metaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:13   Link #13937
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I still can't understand how Shkannon can get past the last riddle of ep6.
It was stated clearly that three bodies have entered the room and only one left the room, as well as only the person can use his name
I don't see any problem with the red at all. Shkannon (who has one body) entered the room.

And it's not so much a matter of being unable to see as just not realising. I mean, you'd expect Bernkastel to at least mention it after 4 episodes, but she seems completely oblivious to the possibility of Shkannon. Therefore it wouldn't be odd if Erika is equally oblivious (she doesn't see Kanon >at all< in episode 6 anyway).
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:17   Link #13938
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You haven't argued it because you have no way to reconcile it. It's not your fault, I don't either. No existing theory really explains it short of a hardline Author Theory "The author says the meta-world characters behaved like this, I don't gotta go into why."

That aside, the burden most assuredly is on a person who believes Shkanon to be true to reconcile Erika's perspective problems in ep5 and ep6 alike. Every explanation I've seen is inconsistent at best and a dodge at worst. There exists, at present, no satisfying way in any theory to why Erika can't see that there are only 17 people present in ep5 yet can at the same time view events not depicted by anyone in the narrative in ep6.

It's a flat contradiction. To everyone's theory. It is intensely problematic.
Well, I disagree that there is no satisfying way, but we need to keep an open mind about it. Just because you can't think of a way that satisfies you doesn't mean there can't be one. That's all I was trying to say there.

In any event, you have to admit that the scene where Battler looks at everyone and sees Shannon and Kanon together can easily be viewed as a hint supporting the Shkanon theory. In fact, it's the first time I ever thought of the theory as anything more than a somewhat pointless coincidence that some people took too seriously.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:39   Link #13939
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In any event, you have to admit that the scene where Battler looks at everyone and sees Shannon and Kanon together can easily be viewed as a hint supporting the Shkanon theory. In fact, it's the first time I ever thought of the theory as anything more than a somewhat pointless coincidence that some people took too seriously.
Are you asking me to admit that a scene in which two characters believed to be the same person are directly portrayed as different people in front of every other character existing (or not) is clear evidence of exactly the opposite of that?

Because no, I don't admit that.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-15, 18:45   Link #13940
JamesEdwards
ANTI-Nonsense
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Deserted Temple
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to JamesEdwards
Unhappy Not a Hijack, But Really Gobsmacked N00b

Not trying to get in anyone way here, but I'd appreciate it if some the gurus here could give me their impressions of what's next for the series and-or what in the world happened in Episode 6.

See, I just got done reading it, and I shamefully admit, I was kinda letdown by it all. In hindsight, Episode 6 really felt like one long gigantic shoujo love story that some folks have probably been clamoring for a while now, but if there is one Episode I can call "Filler", sadly, this has to be the one.

Yes, Ryukishi dropped some pretty snazzy new hints, but I still don't feel I'm any closer to figuring out just what are the real guts and bolts running beneath the stage yet. The other Episodes in comparison were drolly stringing me along to become more engrossed in the mystery, but this time---it didn't happen. I suppose, in that respect, I should be grateful that seems to be the intention in Episode 7: to rip art even more of the stage's curtains and lay bare more of its ugly innards.

Hey, I loved the character development, and the new characters were just totally off the wall. But even, the now expected final clash at midnight "Event", this time around felt really watered down compared to the example of excellence set by the previous episodes. I'm not trying to be the pessimist here, but even the seemingly shorter length of Episode 5 felt better than what I just digested. ...although I suppose I should admit that I feel Episode 5 had the best 24:00 Answer Session in the entire saga thus far. Guess I just set my expectations too high for something even more stupendous... Anyways!

O Wise Ones, please help me renew my faith in this series. Right now, I just really don't know what I supposed to have "Gotten" from Episode 6. Yes, there's a couple things that resonated with me, namely: the deepening conspiracy surrounding Ange, and we got another look Mystery Person X who could be "Origin" behind the present Beatrice. Other than that, all this business about "Love" and "Furniture" went right off the deep end!
__________________
JamesEdwards is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.