AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-16, 22:34   Link #14001
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
The problem is that ep6 is the only one where we have no Meta-Character with Detective Autority on the gameboard (Battler still had it in ep1-4 even if he didn't know) so it's hard to speculate about this mechanic.
I don't really think that this is supposed to be a mechanic that the detective uses, but rather one that the player uses. While the detective's authority does give certain privileges, you clearly don't need it to move your own piece (which means that for all we know, Lambda also had a piece of her own to move in EP1-4). You can view Erika's half of the detective authority privileges as an extra set of moves that you can make when controlling your piece. A non-detective can choose to do a search of a room in one of their moves, whereas a detective can decide to choose a perfect room search that cannot be impeded. However, even without the authority, it seems you can still move your piece and ask your meta-helper about the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
You are right about that the GM being able to change the story that has already happen but would Battler really do it against Erika? I think he doesn't want to abuse the fact that she is not the detective. Even Beatrice at the end admit that she would not use a trick in witch her board perspective is faked, like make her being the rescuer.
I was talking about cat box changes. In other words, changes that still match up with all scenes previously shown and all red texts. If making the change conflicts with the opponent's perspective, that's an illegal move. Once Battler showed Erika the letter from Beatrice, he had to include that in his story (unless both sides agreed to make a retroactive change).
If we take Battler's reactions at face value, he did make this kind of change when Erika sealed the guest room. In his original plan, Battler would have broken the seals at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
Also even if " It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard" why should the human side piece "lie" to herself? Also i don't think the GM can change something the player (Meta-Erika) did. So if Meta Erika commanded her piece to "certainly" kill them, it would be strange for the gm to be able to "cancel" this command.
I agree with you for the most part, so I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
Battler could probably change the story to make them dead shortly before she killed them but he didn't even know she was doing that (and it is actually strange why he didn't notice Erika actions)
We've always assumed that the Game Master knows everything that goes on, but part seems to prove that it's possible for players to hide their actions from the Game Master. Again, this is an interesting point, since it means Lambda might have been able to affect Beato's games without even Beato knowing how.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:35   Link #14002
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I mean, since Ep4 we know that discovering who wrote the message bottle is something important. Now, if we assume Hachijo wrote about everything in the Ep3-6, it may be interesting to guess how she would know about the backstory (assuming she didn't just invented that). This without even thinking the 1998 bits were also fiction.

Anyway, I suppose everyone has it own line of thinking.
Ange said she found a sort of notebook left behind by Kyrie detailing her hellish days with Asumu. Assuming she really did find that (or that because Ange mentioned one exists it is there for someone to find) we might have multiple diaries besides Maria's for backstory. Or something like that.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:38   Link #14003
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Come to think of it, how does Erika know someone is alive before killing them?

Think about it. Isn't it equally impossible to prove someone is alive with 100% certainty without the detective's privilege?

...unless they woke up and started moving around first.
That's what they did. Erika didn't have a Greataxe, she had a knife. a kitchen knife to be precise. You can't give an instant death with that. Let's say almost instant if she slit their throats first. But the victims must have still had the time to grimace, startle, and make a desperate attempt to move first.

Of course this is also something that gives you 100% certainty of someone life status in a world where magic, supernatural, sci-fi technologies and unknown substances are denied by the rules.

So in the end there wasn't just a single exception...
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:42   Link #14004
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well, we don't know how she killed them. Only Maria is specifically noted to have been obedient right up to the point she died. I kind of doubt Kyrie and Eva wouldn't have struggled to a point that Erika couldn't stop them, so I kind of have to think she had some clever means by which to kill them quickly.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:49   Link #14005
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ange said she found a sort of notebook left behind by Kyrie detailing her hellish days with Asumu. Assuming she really did find that (or that because Ange mentioned one exists it is there for someone to find) we might have multiple diaries besides Maria's for backstory. Or something like that.
There is still the issue of how Hachijo (or whoever be the 'author') got that diaries in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, we don't know how she killed them. Only Maria is specifically noted to have been obedient right up to the point she died. I kind of doubt Kyrie and Eva wouldn't have struggled to a point that Erika couldn't stop them, so I kind of have to think she had some clever means by which to kill them quickly.
That 'clever mean' is probably just the kitchen knife in the throat. After having the throat sliced/pierced there is not much more to do. You may try to pull a fight, but it will be a short one. You can't even scream for help, so I believe it was easy to Erika to do everything silently.
Heatth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:53   Link #14006
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
You ever tried to cut meat with a kitchen knife? It's not as easy as it looks. Granted, it could be that ryukishi doesn't know that.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 22:58   Link #14007
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
But the throat is softer then a regular beef right? And it is a bit easier to pierce isn't it? Not to mention he cut don't need to be that deep to kill someone in there.

But, yeah, I have no idea of what I am talking about.
Heatth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:08   Link #14008
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Renall do have a point. Which is why I said it's not very credible that Erika managed to kill 5 persons so easily that way. Especially with people like Eva and Kyrie.

Slicing a throat is a sure method of killing and a knife sharp enough can do the job quite easily. I suppose Gohda possess that kind of knives.

But the problem is that you need a firm hand, you need to make a swift move, and know exactly where to cut. For someone that has never killed anyone before, it's not easy.
Realistically speaking I can't think of a japanese schoolgirl being able to perform such a massacre ins a such a perfectly clean manner (by clean I mean, not letting the victim scream, roam, and cause ruckus).

Just read the news about young girls and guys killing with knives. Most of the times you read they hit their victims 30 or 40 times.
That's not because they are cruel savages, that's because most of the cuts aren't lethal at all.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:13   Link #14009
June 1983
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 31
I can't remember the exact line, but I think Erika said something like "I killed them in the most efficient way possible" or something along the lines. It kind of gave me the impression that she suffocated or drugged them in some way.

Personally the thing I find hardest to believe is her decapitating them. D: Despite her practical description of how she did it, cutting through bone is extremely difficult. You need a very strong butcher's knife and it takes a lot of effort.
June 1983 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:14   Link #14010
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Also, the skin would probably need to be taut to get a good clean cut of the throat.

That would require grabbing their head. You know how in the movies the assassin or soldier grabs their head and yanks it back before slicing? Same principle. If somebody's lying on the floor...

Bern was very vague about how Erika killed everyone. I'm guessing she used a variety of means which would have been easy to figure out, but hard to stop. All she really has to do is incapacitate a person somehow, then she can cut their heads off no matter how much effort it takes.

But again, it ultimately isn't going to make much difference I guess.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:16   Link #14011
zRyuu
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Well, to be fair Erika is not your average school girl and she reads a lot of mistery novels with all kind of murders which are most likely explained with some details. Erika could have read about it before and know how to do this kind of things. I wouldn't put it past her.
zRyuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:17   Link #14012
winter 923
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
We do not talk here about normal Kitchen knives. First at all there is a chance that these are japanese knives and also first class knives. I do not see the proud Gohda preparing Food with a cheap knive. But if it is a surprise attack at the throat how does she not get any blood strains on here Clothes? Kyrie seems to be the hardest problem if she even counts in Jessica attacking her with only 1 lie spoken. I do not think she would drink something from Erika or lay still while Erika puts plastic bags around her.
winter 923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:22   Link #14013
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Damn you and your Ginsu knives, Gohda! Everything is once again all your fault!
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:34   Link #14014
zRyuu
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
If the "victims" that were faking death for the 1st twilight used some kind of drug for that and if they were still under the effect of that drug then it'd be easy for Erika to kill them. In the game, Erika thought about this and said they could have used insulin.
zRyuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-16, 23:37   Link #14015
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You ever tried to cut meat with a kitchen knife? It's not as easy as it looks. Granted, it could be that ryukishi doesn't know that.
No, no he definitely does know! I can guarantee that.

Yes Higurashi again. He gives lots of juicy details...
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-17, 00:23   Link #14016
winter 923
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Oh yea the Insulin thing... also they did let Erika run around did they not? so breathing or a pulse would be fatal but that would put it a bit to a extreme.
I had an idea to take a pill of abilify (raises blood sugar) and enough insulin (I'm not diabetic) to put myself in a coma. I would go in a hypoglycemic coma and would appear to be dead, even to a heart monitor. Later the abilify would kick in and i would slowly regain conciseness.

I realized that this could result in brain damage though.
winter 923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-17, 00:25   Link #14017
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well nobody needs to even be doing anything but lying there with their eyes closed. Erika can't be sure from just looking without detective's authority given the length of time she had to examine everyone. Anything about insulin comas or whatever isn't really necessary as such.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-17, 04:40   Link #14018
Mercurius
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
And not to mention the, uh, mention of garbage bags(?) and such to prevent blood from getting onto her, which implies a cut/trauma of some sort. I personally still have a problem accepting the idea of Erika still retaining her super-paper abilities without having the Detective Authority. The Authority seems to have a stronger tie to her character and backstory than her physical abilities.

In other news, I think everyone who's reading Umineko should go see the new movie Inception. The plot itself is actually rather straightforward if you think about it, but the questions it raises about reality and it's depiction of the concept of Meta is actually quite insightful.
__________________
Mercurius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-17, 04:45   Link #14019
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Well, detective's authority or not, Erika would try to take a pulse, right?
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-17, 04:46   Link #14020
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
There is something I don't get with Shkanon
If Sayo = Kanon =(+?) Shannon
Then Yoshiya = ?

Also : The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
Then People that are not claming Kanon's name other than the person himself are different people.
Shannon and Kanon are different people ok, but there is no room for Sayo here I guess.

Hempel's raven is..he...it leads to nothing in most case...But there is still the Devil's Proof of Shkanon.."It's impossible to prove that Kanon and Shannon aren't the same person (Sayo)"
Then If Sayo isn't Kanon of Shannon then Kanon and Shannon aren't Sayo.
That's why I need to know where is Yoshiya in all this mess.
If Kanon = Yoshiya and Yoshiya ≠ Sayo then
Kanon ≠ Sayo and Shkanon is denied.

Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-07-17 at 05:00.
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.