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Old 2010-07-18, 10:12   Link #14101
Jan-Poo
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Well nevermind. But I don't think we can make a direct connection with the trick that exposes Beatrice's heart and the last red.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:13   Link #14102
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ep5 red truths need to have a word with you

Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!
In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!


Why Battler has to prove that his viewpoint wasn't objective if there was nothing that would force the detective to have an objective viewpoint?
EP5 red truths have already had a word with me. Allow me to reemphasize them for you:
Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!
In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!


If Battler had been the detective in EP5, then the objective viewpoint rule from Knox certainly would have applied to him because Knox was shown to be in effect for that episode. That's why his whole argument with Dlanor was possible. However, even though Battler actually was the detective for EP1-4, because Knox doesn't apply to those games, it was never shown that the detective position had the same restrictions attached to it as it did in EP5.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The right question for me is: was it ever stated that the game necessarily needs to end at midnight? Since we know that in EP5 and EP6 the game could be suspended a lot before that time, why can't the game in EP2 have ended earlier because Battler resigned?
Because pieces continued to move on the board after that time. That doesn't mean you're wrong about the game not ending at midnight, but maybe you're erring in the wrong direction. What actual basis is there for thinking that the reason Battler participated in fantasy scenes at the end of EP1-2 was because the game had ended? EP3 established that Battler can witness the moment of his own death without it being falsified by the witch.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:15   Link #14103
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I edited the previous post, please check.
As it regard "Battler and Beatrice don't say anything before shooting Erika.", I am referring to the Battler and Beato's dialogue before Erika says "Aaahh! So you have to flirt in front of me!!" or something like that, at the end of EP6

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
EP5 red truths have already had a word with me. Allow me to reemphasize them for you:
However, even though Battler actually was the detective for EP1-4, because Knox doesn't apply to those games, it was never shown that the detective position had the same restrictions attached to it as it did in EP5.
I personally think that they apply to all games, or else it would not be a mistery

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well nevermind. But I don't think we can make a direct connection with the trick that exposes Beatrice's heart and the last red.
Well, I think the dialogue they have before Erika says "Aaahh! So you have to flirt in front of me!!" (aah, Erika __) actually has to refer to Beatrice's heart exposing and the red they shoot together (is the only thing they do after that xD)
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:27   Link #14104
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I personally think that they apply to all games, or else it would not be a mistery
Quite a large number of mysteries violate Knox in some way, just like quite a large number violate Dine. They're supposed to be suggestive guidelines for fair play, not weapons to be wielded against the author. Any rule other than "the puzzle must be fair and solvable with the given hints" is fundamentally unnecessary.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:27   Link #14105
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It can still be a mystery without Knox, otherwise it would have been mentioned already. Since we don't actually have a confirmation yet that Knox applies to the story, we have to either assume it does or doesn't. While there's evidence it does apply to Ep 5, there's none that it applies to 1-4.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:32   Link #14106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
EP5 red truths have already had a word with me. Allow me to reemphasize them for you:
Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!
In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!


If Battler had been the detective in EP5, then the objective viewpoint rule from Knox certainly would have applied to him because Knox was shown to be in effect for that episode. That's why his whole argument with Dlanor was possible. However, even though Battler actually was the detective for EP1-4, because Knox doesn't apply to those games, it was never shown that the detective position had the same restrictions attached to it as it did in EP5.
I don't see how this proves your point and disproves mine.
The "this time" is related to issue of Battler being the detective or not and having objective perception or not in this game. In no way the "this time" is connected to the right to falsify the viewpoint.

If you were right Dlanor would have worded it this way:

Was it ever shown that you were not the detective, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, this time you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

But such a thing is not even suggested.


@Linkin Battler

If you call it your opinion it's all right, but in no way your opinion proves anyone wrong, nor confirms anything. I personally do not think that your reasoning is the most logic assumption. It's quite far-fetched in my eyes.

I believe that it's definitely more logic to think that Erika who came after four games would be numbered the last human on Rokkenjima. Your reasoning is a lot more feeble in comparison. specifically because if you think "people" refers to living people and "humans" includes human corpses. then Erika might have been considered the 18th person, but in no way she could have been considered the 18th human at any given time by that definition.

You are making arbitrary switches of definitions according to what is more convenient for you.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:40   Link #14107
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't see how this proves your point and disproves mine.
The "this time" is related to issue of Battler being the detective or not and having objective perception or not in this game. In no way the "this time" is connected to the right to falsify the viewpoint.

If you were right Dlanor would have worded it this way:

Was it ever shown that you were not the detective, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, this time you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

But such a thing is not even suggested.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea how you're parsing Dlanor's statement that way.

Unless it was [ever shown that you were not the detective this time], you do not have the right to falsify your point of view.

She is clearly talking about the current game. There is no ambiguity here at all.
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:48   Link #14108
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
then why in EP3 it worked for personalities?
Mind helping me remember with EP3? the there are no more then 18 humans? (personalities) or which red do you mean?
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Old 2010-07-18, 10:55   Link #14109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Quite a large number of mysteries violate Knox in some way, just like quite a large number violate Dine. They're supposed to be suggestive guidelines for fair play, not weapons to be wielded against the author. Any rule other than "the puzzle must be fair and solvable with the given hints" is fundamentally unnecessary.
You're right, however, since they are stated in red in EP5, I think they are valid also for the previous Episodes, even though there is no certainty...


Quote:
@Linkin Battler

If you call it your opinion it's all right, but in no way your opinion proves anyone wrong, nor confirms anything. I personally do not think that your reasoning is the most logic assumption. It's quite far-fetched in my eyes.

I believe that it's definitely more logic to think that Erika who came after four games would be numbered the last human on Rokkenjima. Your reasoning is a lot more feeble in comparison. specifically because if you think "people" refers to living people and "humans" includes human corpses. then Erika might have been considered the 18th person, but in no way she could have been considered the 18th human at any given time by that definition.

You are making arbitrary switches of definitions according to what is more convenient for you.
It is obvious, I think that it (the bold text) is the very first premise of what we post here xD
However, I find more logical my argument and I don't understand why Erika could not be the 18th human. She could have also been the 5th or the 13th, it depends on how you count them.
And... I find your reasoning more feeble for many reasons and I number Kinzo as the last since he does not even appear anymore in the game, he is completely useless.
Anyhow, I think it is useless to continue arguing on that, we won't find anything new and it is quite impossible for me and for you to change our ideas.
I have another thing to discuss, can you reread the piece in EP3 when they talk about Nanjo's homicide and EVA says in red many things about everyone's red?
I think that from that piece is clear that there is another person and EVA is just trying to think Battler making him believes they are the only three survivors, while there is another person alive. Personally, I think that the theory of Battler sucks, do you find any other solutions? You should know already, I think to humanBeatrice, but I'd like to know if anyone of you find / has found another solution


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Originally Posted by winter 923 View Post
Mind helping me remember with EP3? the there are no more then 18 humans? (personalities) or which red do you mean?
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
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Old 2010-07-18, 11:26   Link #14110
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Well, with Battler's "objective viewpoint" in EP2, remember what Battler was doing before Genji brought him to Kinzo's room: he was drinking hard liquor.

He was drunk when he saw Kinzo and Beatrice alive in the mansion. I do not know if it's ever allowed for the detective to be in a state where he cannot "detect" to the best of his ability, but the way I see it, it does not conflict with any Knox Rules directly.
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Old 2010-07-18, 11:58   Link #14111
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Personally, I think that the theory of Battler sucks, do you find any other solutions? You should know already, I think to humanBeatrice, but I'd like to know if anyone of you find / has found another solution
I also think that Battler's theory isn't the right one.

The solution I thought at the time of EP3 was that Nanjo died before the start of the game and the "Nanjo" in the gameboard is another Nanjo.
I am not so sure about that however at this point.
The trick of using reds about homonym people not present in the gameboard is a very bad trick, even if it has never denied, unfortunately.

Another more recent interpretation is that Shannon and Kanon only died as furniture and therefore the original persona was still free to roam.


By human Beatrice you mean that Beatrice is a separate entity and that shannon and kanon are the same person?

There are several problems with that.

1) the first is the fact that in EP6 we see a monologue that strongly hints that Beatrice was created from a person that knew Battler very well. It is very hard to ignore that.

2) the second is the fact that Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice are suggested to be connected in the love trial. The love trial is one of the best argument you can use to support the shkanon theory, however the interpretation of the love trial in that sense makes Beatrice automatically another personality of the same host body. The whole explanation of "the magic can only be granted to a single couple" would decay, and you'd have to find another explanation in the case of Beatrice, losing one of the major arguments to support shkanon theory.
Additionally when Shannon wins it is said that kanon's soul and Beatrice's soul dissolve and gather in Shannon. it is also said that in case Beatrice won, Shannon and Kanon would dissolve and gather into Beatrice.
Only those three are mentioned, while Battler, George and Jessica are inexplicably left untouched. Inexplicably, unless it's only Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon who share a special connection.

3) Another major point of shkanon is that Battler has never seen both Shannon and Kanon at the same time. However Beatrice's presence is even more dubious. If she really exists as an individual person, why she almost never show herself and the only time she did, she did it in a very ambiguous manner?
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Old 2010-07-18, 11:59   Link #14112
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I think....


People with Detective status is supposed to have trustworthy viewpoint, not objectively correct viewpoint.

Sometimes with backup information like the detective was an experienced one, having learnt medicine, etc, then the readers can be assured that their autopsy was trustworthy and true.

However, common people with detective status may not have this kind of privilege, so even though we should believe he told what he had seen, what he had heard, what he had examined, they were not supposed to be correct.

Hence, Erika, who was said to have eidetic memory, with great experience in examining corpses, her observation was trustworthy and true. The GM simply raised this common but implicit knowledge of readers (the Knox rules) to truth by using red texts.

Battler, as a novice detective and normal person, could be cheated, fooled even though he was the detective in EP1-4. But Erika was different, so don't compare these two people even though they both had had detective status.

THe reason why Erika's observation can be raised into truth was because EP5 followed Knox rules, while GM Battler allowed some of the Knox rules (no secret tunnels for the closed-room) to be applied in EP6.
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Old 2010-07-18, 12:01   Link #14113
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He was drunk when he saw Kinzo and Beatrice alive in the mansion. I do not know if it's ever allowed for the detective to be in a state where he cannot "detect" to the best of his ability, but the way I see it, it does not conflict with any Knox Rules directly.
In my experience, no amount of hard liquor actually causes hallucinations by itself, though. Behavioural aberrations, memory loss, sure. Drowsiness and loss of fine motor control, even in low doses. But only regular abuse of hard liquor over a long period of time may actually result in hallucinatory effects.

...actually, that might be a hint for Ep4.
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Old 2010-07-18, 12:06   Link #14114
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What, everyone on the island is out of their mind on booze?
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Old 2010-07-18, 12:12   Link #14115
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
In my experience, no amount of hard liquor actually causes hallucinations by itself, though. Behavioural aberrations, memory loss, sure. Drowsiness and loss of fine motor control, even in low doses. But only regular abuse of hard liquor over a long period of time may actually result in hallucinatory effects.

...actually, that might be a hint for Ep4.
I will admit that hallucinations from just alcohol is a bit of a stretch. But the effects of the booze cannot be denied; we know SOMETHING is up because the only incident of Battler seeing Beatrice (outside of EP4) and Kinzo alive in the Question Arcs is in EP2, after the liquor.

Maybe Kinzo also had a marijuana hoard

Edit: Also, wasn't it said that the stench of the liquor from Kinzo's room wasn't from alcohol itself, but from preservatives used to "mummify" Kinzo or something? I don't remember if I read there here or if it was actually from the games. But if Battler mistook that, well...

But I don't remember if it's actually a fact.
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Old 2010-07-18, 12:26   Link #14116
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Maybe Kinzo also had a marijuana hoard
I have seen ketamine proposed by someone to explain Maria's dream in Ep3 which is for some reason narrated by Rosa.

They may have a point, a bottle of alcohol with something hallucinogenic in it may have ended up on the island and could possibly be responsible for some of the things Battler sees after ingesting it as well as some of the things reported by people in Ep4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Edit: Also, wasn't it said that the stench of the liquor from Kinzo's room wasn't from alcohol itself, but from preservatives used to "mummify" Kinzo or something? I don't remember if I read there here or if it was actually from the games. But if Battler mistook that, well...

But I don't remember if it's actually a fact.
It's not. I've proposed this explanation as the only practical way to keep Kinzo's body around close by without actually burying it. I have since abandoned this idea on the basis that nobody could think of a good reason to do so for any character.

My current opinion is that the body was buried, but someone exhumed it early on the 4th before rain or dark. (Instead of the night of the 4th as was usually thought prior, which is way too impractical to do.)
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Old 2010-07-18, 12:49   Link #14117
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It's not. I've proposed this explanation as the only practical way to keep Kinzo's body around close by without actually burying it. I have since abandoned this idea on the basis that nobody could think of a good reason to do so for any character.

My current opinion is that the body was buried, but someone exhumed it early on the 4th before rain or dark. (Instead of the night of the 4th as was usually thought prior, which is way too impractical to do.)
There is no definitive reason as to why someone would want to preserve Kinzo's body, but there are some possibilities:
  • Krauss and Natsuhi did not bury the body on the island because they did not want any chance that someone would stumble upon it. They wanted it under their complete supervision so they could be absolutely sure no one would find it.
  • They used preservatives so the odor of human decay would not be noticeable. I don't know exactly how mummification works, though, and I don't know how pungent the stench of human decay is.
  • Keeping the body in Kinzo's room would ensure that none of the relatives would be able to access it, because none of them are allowed in there.
  • Nanjo needs a "body" to play chess with
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Old 2010-07-18, 13:23   Link #14118
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In addition this interpretation has holes. From one side because, as I have explained, there's Kinzo's corpse to take in consideration. From the other side because if "人" refers to living persons, then why in EP3 it worked for personalities?

Either way you'd have to make far-fetched speculations about the arbitrary use of the words.
The only truth here is that this is a total mess.

We can only make speculations, which is why your own point of view is not better nor any worse than the rests. But unfortunately we cannot reach not even a 20% of certainty with the elements at our disposal.
Actually, there is a way around this with the Japanese language, which I've already mentioned. Remember that 人 is a counter, not a separate word. When Erika uses her final red, she says 18目の人間. So it is not the case that Erika and Battler use separate words at the end there (yes, even though we translated it that way). The only difference is that Erika mentioned 'humans' and Battler just used the counter.

So, there's no need to worry about the dirty details of 'humans' and 'persons'. A dead person can be counted as a person, or that can be not counted. It depends on the context. As for the third game, the word 'human' is not used at all. It just uses that counter 人 to add up humans and furniture, since a counter is less specific than a word.

Simply put,
EP3: List of names, so 人 is counting the number of names. Never says that these names refer to humans.
EP6: Erika refers to the number of humans, so 人 is counting the number of humans for both the 17 and the 18.
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Old 2010-07-18, 13:50   Link #14119
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But it's still a problem chrono.

As I told you already, if both parties talk about the same thing then the two reds are not compatible. The context can't be any different if what Battler and Beato said is to be related to what Erika said.

Otherwise they talk about different things. And then you can't be sure about what Battler and Beato were talking about.
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Old 2010-07-18, 13:52   Link #14120
Oliver
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Krauss and Natsuhi did not bury the body on the island because they did not want any chance that someone would stumble upon it. They wanted it under their complete supervision so they could be absolutely sure no one would find it.
Fails. All they need to do is give the uninvolved servants a day off, give Jessica a ticket to Delsneyland or something for the weekend, and stick the body into the incinerator. On full power, nothing but ashes will be left soon, which can then be ceremoniously cast into the wind.

No body => no need to supervise it, everyone happy.
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