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Old 2010-07-19, 18:38   Link #14221
UsagiTenpura
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Even tho you can't create a natural disaster, I sorta want to think that's what it is nontheless. Kinzo was part of a "branch of a branch" and became the heir after a natural disaster. Basically if it's also a natural disaster Ange ends up in the same situation that Kinzo did.

As mentioned there's things like the storm that would've been very hard to predict, nontheless, it occurs every time. Kinzo mentions how "magic" is to "draw coincidence to you"(like his Moses example), so I think Beatrice isn't responsible for what's going on but just draws it to her, as if it was no coincidence.

Also ... the explosion theory requires an explosion that's just... way too big to make any more sense then a volcano or something. Sometimes earthquakes or the such can result in part of an island going underwater and getting smaller, as well as changing the landscape for part of the remaining island.

And since there's various mentions of earthquake... I think it's more likely then an explosion at least for now. I really dislike "completely new information" (that had nothing hinting it) that appears in arc 5-6 because it was said in red that all the clues are in arc 1-2-3-4. Doesn't that sorta mean that anything new that was never hinted at before is a Red herring?
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Old 2010-07-19, 18:41   Link #14222
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racheya-sama View Post
I just want to clarify where this theory of a bomb has come from? I *get* it, but I'm not understanding what the basis was for this theory to come about? Was there any reference to a bomb-like thing happening in the VN's that I've just missed?
Ryukishi lists the hints that lead to the endgame explosion theory in an interview and pretty explicitly confirms it. Biggest ones are in Ep4.
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Old 2010-07-19, 18:52   Link #14223
Renall
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It's suggested to be an explosion as early as the ep1 endscroll. Most people didn't believe it because it seemed far-fetched, and it still does, but the fact that there was some manner of explosion appears to be correct. Its full nature is completely unclear, however.
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Old 2010-07-19, 18:54   Link #14224
Judoh
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If anyone cares I once suggested we could have an explosion activated by a phone call from the outside line at midnight.

There is a way to rig the phones to only receive calls from the outside line and not be able to call using the outside line apparently.
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Old 2010-07-19, 18:58   Link #14225
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If anyone cares I once suggested we could have an explosion activated by a phone call from the outside line at midnight.
The only point for doing that would be to let Beatrice set up the final Ep4 puzzle, though.
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Old 2010-07-19, 18:59   Link #14226
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I'm curious as to whether it's necessary to interpret the "but I am here now" part. You're stretching metaphor to say you're "here" when you make a phone call.
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Old 2010-07-19, 19:00   Link #14227
Leafsnail
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Noone outside the island can interfere?
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Old 2010-07-19, 19:39   Link #14228
DaBackpack
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Well, think of it this way: assuming a bomb did go off (and it wasn't a natural disaster) how come no one mentions it in the future? There could be a few possibilities:

1.) They assumed that the Kumadorian was the main structure of the island and not the mansion
2.) The mansion was intact from the accident
3.) They did and Ryukishi just didn't say anything about it

If Option 1 is the key, then there is no problem at all as long as the mansion is completely wiped off the face of the earth and no remnants are left behind. However, body parts of the children were found so there must have been something left.

If Option 2 is the key, I would like to re-introduce small bombs into the picture. There were strategically placed incendiary devices by the important rooms and the survivors were killed at the very end. The wharf was blown up for some reason, though... maybe the culprit didn't anticipate the storm to be as bad as it was and blew it up to ensure that no one could escape or be rescued?

If Option 3 is the key, then we're back where we started.
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Old 2010-07-19, 19:44   Link #14229
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Well, think of it this way: assuming a bomb did go off (and it wasn't a natural disaster) how come no one mentions it in the future? There could be a few possibilities:
They do. They mention the Rokkenjima accident in the future they just leave out the explosion part as if it's self evident.

Quote:
1.) They assumed that the Kumadorian was the main structure of the island and not the mansion
Huh? I don't follow

Quote:
2.) The mansion was intact from the accident
It wasn't. Along with the mansion's dock the mansion and the land it was standing on are also missing. This is pointed out in the anime, and the game, as well as the interview.

Quote:
3.) They did and Ryukishi just didn't say anything about it
see above
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Old 2010-07-19, 19:56   Link #14230
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
They do. They mention the Rokkenjima accident in the future they just leave out the explosion part as if it's self evident.
Right, I mean he was intentionally being vague by having the characters use the ambiguous "Rokkenjima Accident" term.
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Huh? I don't follow
Not many people were familiar with the layout of the island. If the main mansion was completely annihilated and no one noticed any remains, they could have just assumed that the only structure was Kumadorian. But that creates problems like "how did they know people died at all?" So there must have been some remains. Unless the boat captain tipped off authorities about the mansion, but still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It wasn't. Along with the mansion's dock the mansion and the land it was standing on are also missing. This is pointed out in the anime, and the game, as well as the interview.
Sorry, I guess I didn't pick up on that
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Old 2010-07-19, 20:06   Link #14231
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Sorry, I guess I didn't pick up on that
It went by pretty quick a lot of people didn't.

Quote:
Not many people were familiar with the layout of the island. If the main mansion was completely annihilated and no one noticed any remains, they could have just assumed that the only structure was Kumadorian. But that creates problems like "how did they know people died at all?" So there must have been some remains. Unless the boat captain tipped off authorities about the mansion, but still.
IIRC Kawabata actually says he did that.

Maria's jaw is the only piece of evidence we're specifically told about that suggests any remains were found.

To go further on that last point Nanjo Jr. says his father's body was never found.

EDIT: However Hachijou Touya says if she went to Rokkenjima herself she'd probably be able to confirm all of her answers.
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Old 2010-07-19, 20:24   Link #14232
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Also, bear in mind that if the people were found in anything even remotely resembling the state they were in during the episodes, there wouldn't really be much doubt as to whether it was murder or not...
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Old 2010-07-19, 20:44   Link #14233
pmoys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter 923 View Post
...
Spoiler for How do witches die:
witches die... wait. Remember Ange was part of the mariage sorciere? she became sick and "died" to maria during that particular family conference, and was hardly discussed during any game (child ange).
Although nobody is on the island that isn't supposed to be, i wonder if ange didn't become some part of a plan from kyrie's family...
"please take this on your next trip and plant it! it's a seed!" but it is not... are seeds small bombs?
anyway, at that point, if all ushiromiyas save for ange die, it makes ange the sole heir to the fortune, but too young to do anything with it. so she would be under the care of kyrie's family...

ok it doesn't make much sense, but for some reason when you said "witches die" that idea just clicked with me.
perhaps maria is nutso and is trying to "revive" ange with firecrackers. idk.
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Old 2010-07-19, 23:32   Link #14234
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There are parts in EP2 that makes me think that the fakery is done for Maria's sake (cousins and Nanjo's conversation in the guesthouse, the witches tea party when Lambda talks about Santa), and well Rosa could've been involved in both EP1 and EP2.
EP1: Both Rosa and Eva left the dinning hall. Eva "survives" the first twilight, the second twilight looks fake because of the way Eva and Hideyoshi were killed.
EP2: Rosa and the servants's lie made the chapel closed room. It's possible that the chapel hasn't been closed since the start of the game.
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Old 2010-07-19, 23:43   Link #14235
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
EP2: Rosa and the servants's lie made the chapel closed room. It's possible that the chapel hasn't been closed since the start of the game.
It's more then possible it's very likely, tho I'm not sure the servants ever said anything about the chapel being locked (when Batter got there Rosa was already inside).
Beatrice said a ton of red about the key's location and how the door needed the key to be locked or unlocked but it's never said once that it IS locked (or ever was).

So basically the "chapel closed room" is a mystery only created in the meta world, by ensnaring our thoughts.
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Old 2010-07-20, 00:39   Link #14236
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Excuse the interruption. I had to post this somewhere.

This is a collection of some of my theories as well as some of the theories making the rounds on the board. There will be spoilers up to EP6. EDIT: These theories were made as of EP6 and have not been updated at the end of EP8.

This might be a repeat for most of you, except check out the 'Epitaph Key Theory' under Epitaph Fakery Theory. That's a bit new.

As for the other stuff, let me know if I need to make edits. I'll be coming back to this message to edit it. Also if you guys want me to add any well established theories let me know. Like the 10th Twilight Bomb Theory? That's kinda pretty obvious now so I didn't include it here...

Spoiler for Faction War Theory:

Spoiler for Epitaph Fakery Theory -- Or, The Theory Formerly Known as the Fake First Twilight Theory:

Spoiler for Author Theory:

Spoiler for Umineko Color Theory:

Spoiler for Red Text Theory:

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-01-19 at 05:14. Reason: EDIT: Re-edited first paragraph to exclude reasons why I didn't need to update them.
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Old 2010-07-20, 02:22   Link #14237
Oliver
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Speaking of the author theory...

I have a feeling that Hachijou is lying. There are actually three authors.

One for Ep1-2, a very different one for Ep3-4, and possibly Hachijou herself for Ep5-6.

Thoughts?
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Old 2010-07-20, 02:32   Link #14238
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Speaking of the author theory...

I have a feeling that Hachijou is lying. There are actually three authors.

One for Ep1-2, a very different one for Ep3-4, and possibly Hachijou herself for Ep5-6.

Thoughts?
I personally despise author theories, but if I were to pair similar episodes... I would say 1&5, 2&3, and 4&6. But what really tells us that a different character is writing the story? Nothing.
Anyways, I paired the episodes as such because 1&5 put a lot of attention on Natsuhi, 2&3 put a lot of attention on Rosa, then 4&6 are completely different from the rest.
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Old 2010-07-20, 02:39   Link #14239
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Speaking of the author theory...

I have a feeling that Hachijou is lying. There are actually three authors.

One for Ep1-2, a very different one for Ep3-4, and possibly Hachijou herself for Ep5-6.

Thoughts?
I suspect that Hachijou doesn't know as much truth as she claims to. Certainly not all of it. Since I'm suspecting that whoever wrote EP5-6 didn't just stop at the first twilights for both episodes for the sake of the story but because they lacked the rest of the answers.

If this is true then it can explain why she needs to seek more truths now.
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Old 2010-07-20, 02:59   Link #14240
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I suspect that Hachijou doesn't know as much truth as she claims to. Certainly not all of it. Since I'm suspecting that whoever wrote EP5-6 didn't just stop at the first twilights for both episodes for the sake of the story but because they lacked the rest of the answers.

If this is true then it can explain why she needs to seek more truths now.
She doesn't even claim that much, strictly speaking. She claims knowledge of "certain answers" but never elaborates on what they are or how deeply they reach. I can do that too, and often more convincingly.

3-4 contain a completed story that goes all the way to the endgame event, while 5-6 contain what appears to be a self-insert character bent on stealing the show by being the tragic heroine. If you can pull off faithful-to-the-original-bottles 3 and 4, why do you need to write 5 and 6, which are so radically different?

That begs the question though, what else could "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" mean other than 18^8. Did Hachijou actually find two real bottles, 3 and 4, and release them under her pen name before writing two more, or did someone else write 3 and 4 under that name, which seems to encrypt 18^8 but actually meant something very different for them, and then Hachijou noticed it's 18^8 and decided to mess in it on her own?
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