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Old 2010-07-20, 11:55   Link #14261
40511
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@chrontrig

Thats exactly what i meant in my post..

Erika is simply not existed. Much like Kinzo, he is not existed since he is dead before the game starts.

Last edited by 40511; 2010-07-20 at 21:13.
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Old 2010-07-20, 11:59   Link #14262
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This is how I really think the Rika/Bern/Featherine/ect thing works.

Hanyuu was Featherine's peice and was left in the world of Hinamizawa as a method of repeating time for Rika. Rika was pretty much forced into being Featherine's piece and made to wander the hells of endless kakera, trying to find a miracle. I'm not sure what *exact* logic error there was in this game, but Rika was made to find her own way out.

Eventually, she did, and Bernkastel was formed to be the collection of her hundreds of years of torture, trying to find her way out. She became the witch of miracles because she had the literal miracle of finally winning in Higurashi.
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Old 2010-07-20, 11:59   Link #14263
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@chrontrig

Thats exactly what i mean in my post..

Erika is simply not existed. Much like Kinzo, he is not existed since he is dead before the game starts.
No, it doesn't work that way. Whether Erika is dead or alive, you can't take another person's name. The rule about names doesn't count life or death, which also means that Kinzo's name cannot be taken unless it is already the proper name of the person using it.

Also, the 18/17 person question at the end cannot be solved if Erika is on the island, either alive or dead. At least, I haven't heard an argument for that yet (except Shkanon).
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Old 2010-07-20, 12:59   Link #14264
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If "Erika" is titular, it doesn't refer to "Furudo Erika." Even so, only one person can claim to be "Erika" at any point. It would just wind up being a question of who and when.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:07   Link #14265
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, the 18/17 person question at the end cannot be solved if Erika is on the island, either alive or dead. At least, I haven't heard an argument for that yet (except Shkanon).
Just wondering, how can that be solved with Shkanon? Erika specifies herself as the 18th human.
Also,do you think the destinction made between 18 humans and 17 people is an important one? Like if you were to say human is similar to a witch in that they exist when they are acknowledged... Or something like that. Like illusions can count towards the human count but not the people count.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:14   Link #14266
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If "Erika" is titular, it doesn't refer to "Furudo Erika." Even so, only one person can claim to be "Erika" at any point. It would just wind up being a question of who and when.
Sorry, I'm not buying this at all. If Erika is a title and Furudo Erika is a name of a person, then the title Erika must be derived from the name of the person Furudo Erika. The contrary would be a ridiculous coincidence, and one without any hinting besides.

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Just wondering, how can that be solved with Shkanon? Erika specifies herself as the 18th human.
Also,do you think the destinction made between 18 humans and 17 people is an important one? Like if you were to say human is similar to a witch in that they exist when they are acknowledged... Or something like that. Like illusions can count towards the human count but not the people count.
We translated that as 'humans' and 'people' just to be safe, but I'm not at all convinced that the two are supposed to be different words. Different contexts, probably, but not different words.

With Shkanon, the number 18 can be reached by counting human bodies, while the number 17 can be reached by counting living humans. Erika says "I'm the 18th human" because she knows that it will be shot down by Battler in a spectacular finale. In other words, while "I am the 18th human" is technically true because corpses can be counted as humans (as EP5 proves), it is not true in the sense it was intended: namely that it referred to the number of living people.

I think both Battler and Erika realized this beforehand, and staged the final clash so that Erika could have a fitting death. Seemingly impossible mysteries=honor in this game.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:26   Link #14267
Oliver
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EDIT: Another possibility is that every episode other than 1-2 has a different author.
While it is a possibility, I consider it rather slim. It doesn't, however, mean that all the episodes 5-8 can't be written by the same hand, as there's nothing making Ryukishi do that.

Here are some specific observations:
  • Episodes 1 and 2 look like the beginning of a long series which was never finished by the original author, Ep1 is essentially an ultra-long foreword to Ep2.
    "Ushiromiya Maria" considers the Jessica+Kanon romance a sad failure, and while she likes the idea of George+Shannon romance, she doesn't actually dare to do much with it -- they never say "I love you" to each other and the ring vanishes when Shannon is supposed to have it on. Beatrice is a decidedly unsympathetic character, who can't even explain a methodological point without mocking Battler like Doctor House. Beatrice is pointedly sadistic with clearly sexual undertones.
  • Episodes 3 and 4 do not match 1 and 2, they may in fact belong to "Ushiromiya Maria" but probably do not. The reason is that if they do include Ange's thread of the narrative, they cannot possibly be written in the Rokkenjima-prime world until Ange is in any way a major character, i.e. until at least 1990. It is very possible that episodes 3 and 4 are written by different people but not necessary. I would say the authors of Ep3 and Ep4 are closely connected and possibly collaborating if they are not the same person.
    It's hard to say much about this particular author or authors, as the way Ep3 plays out is radically different from Ep4, but, they both clearly treat Beatrice very differently, allowing her progressively more humanity as the narrative rolls on, making her actually react to the developing character of Meta-Battler, which Ep2 Beatrice never did. Sadistic sexual undertones suddenly vanish as if they were never there.
    Extra advisor characters are introduced for Battler, that is, Virgilia and Ronove, which are unambiguously whitewashing Beatrice, acting on her wishes but not her orders.
    This author or authors are the first to propose that the answers to the mystery lie in the family's past and are related to numerous closeted skeletons. Ange is used as the detective to dig up some of them from the outer side, but the amount of information actually available to this author about what happened on the island itself is smaller than it was for the author of Episodes 1-2.
    Both romances become vehicles for the character development of Beatrice and don't exist for their own sake. The problem with the ring is dealt with differently in both episodes - in Ep3, Shannon's corpse is simply not available for the examination until very late, and in Ep4 George simply never gets a chance to give the ring. As a result, the George+Shannon romance is held up as one of the 'hopes' of the author, but in such a way that it doesn't break the narrative. Jessica+Kanon romance takes a back seat, in Ep3 there's a brief return to it in the manner of Ghost Kanon, but eh... he's dead, isn't he.
  • Episodes 5 and 6 are very likely to belong to the same author, in fact, they are more alike than 1 and 2. This author, Hachijou or not, definitely aren't "Ushiromiya Maria" and aren't the author of 3, or 4 or both.
    They are very interested in playing with interpretations of the red, ready to juggle names around ("Tanaka George"), consider both the George+Shannon and Jessica+Kanon couples a done thing, but seem to believe in no motives for murder other than love. Nobody seems to be murdering for heirship or even gold, first twilight is explicitly a game rather than something more sinister.
    The game does not proceed past the first twilight much as they probably aren't sure what happens next. The episodes are connected by a very consistent portrayal of Erika, which progresses from an annoying super detective in Ep5 to tragic heroine in Ep6 through revealing Freudian excuses, since the readers didn't like her in Ep5 at all.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:44   Link #14268
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Sorry, I'm not buying this at all. If Erika is a title and Furudo Erika is a name of a person, then the title Erika must be derived from the name of the person Furudo Erika. The contrary would be a ridiculous coincidence, and one without any hinting besides.
First of all, you're wrong. Second of all, I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing with that; if there ever was a person named Furudo Erika and the body of an individual by the name of Furudo Erika should ever have happened upon Rokkenjima, that might indicate that this individual is the only one who can claim the name "Erika." However, it is in no way dispositive and you are entirely mistaken to suggest it is.

I should point out that we aren't ever talking about anyone named "Furudo Erika" with respect to the ep6 closed room. We are talking about "Erika." If "Kinzo" can be a title and "Kanon" can die and there can be two "Battlers," or if we can even consider those things a possibility - and the game says that we can! - then "Erika" and "Furudo Erika" can be different people even if both exist. It's an entirely valid supposition per the Other Battler Theorem. It may not be true, but it's valid.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:54   Link #14269
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First of all, you're wrong. Second of all, I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing with that; if there ever was a person named Furudo Erika and the body of an individual by the name of Furudo Erika should ever have happened upon Rokkenjima, that might indicate that this individual is the only one who can claim the name "Erika." However, it is in no way dispositive and you are entirely mistaken to suggest it is.
And the point of "people can only use their own names" was what, exactly? If this isn't proof, then that red text has absolutely no meaning at all. You can only argue the contrary if this red text was completely useless.

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I should point out that we aren't ever talking about anyone named "Furudo Erika" with respect to the ep6 closed room. We are talking about "Erika." If "Kinzo" can be a title and "Kanon" can die and there can be two "Battlers," or if we can even consider those things a possibility - and the game says that we can! - then "Erika" and "Furudo Erika" can be different people even if both exist. It's an entirely valid supposition per the Other Battler Theorem. It may not be true, but it's valid.
This is incorrect. While it's true that Beatrice uses the name Erika once, the vast majority of the time she refers to Erika as 'you'. Since meta-Erika later says in red that she is Furudo Erika, the Erika involved must be Furudo Erika or once again, you must argue that a particular red text had no meaning whatsoever.

And yes, it's enough of a stretch that one Erika exists, so two of them existing is even more ridiculous, since there's never been any foreshadowing or hinting. You've still not provided any more reason for this second "Erika" to exist than just "the detective is Erika". Why should the detective be called Erika? Why does that name happen to be the same as Furudo Erika's? There must be a way to explain this if the theory is going to hold up.

In short, we once again reach the point where Erika theories require much more of a stretch than Shkanon theories. That doesn't mean they're wrong, just that we haven't yet hit upon a working theory.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:55   Link #14270
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As long as the chapters are written with some essence of the final "truth", even if they are written by a (proposed) different author the stories woven still contain elements of the truth.

Take for example the end of Ep 2 as Rosa and Maria have a confession to eachother as goats try to eat them, there are elements implied that though Rosa is valiantly trying to protect Maria, she has actualy in fact been a poor mother.

How poor of a mother HAS Rosa been? If Umineko ended at ep 2 (and in a way until the release of ep 4 it could not be shown with certainty what kind of mother Rosa has been outside the game, could Rosa simply be slapping Maria around because this is in fact an important family meeting, or does Rosa slap Maria around every day of the week?

That is to say, as long as new information given is "true" to the whole picture, the one giving the message isn't as relevant, and in a way it's better if the information is given from another point of view so the audience can see the stage in a different manner.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:59   Link #14271
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
She does have horns, they're just explained in a different way.

Spoiler:
They are not horns, it clearly says that they are not horns, and

Spoiler for higurashi:


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Originally Posted by Burkie View Post
I thought it was confirmed that Bernkastel was the collective memory of all the Rika's who participated in Higurashi, she even said ni-pah in the Ep2 ????. And either her or Lambda also mentioned the game that always began on June 20th as well, from that and Lambda and Bern having played against each other in a game before I assumed they were both in Higurashi (as well as the whole 34 thing).
As for Featherine, I assumed that she was Hanyuu, who was the actual game master of Higurashi, but wasn't bothered solving the Logic error and so forced the responsibility onto Rika. As for the horns... She's a witch, I'd assume she could change her appearance Her memory aid does looks a lot like them though
How that was confirmed? The ni-pah was merely fan service. The only thing that it was confirmed it's said in an interview:

Quote:
K: The appearance of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta serves as a fanservice, but also seems to have other meanings. It looks like they are somewhat connected to the core of Umineko.

R: Which portion is fanservice and which portion is proof of the distortion created from human objectivity is hard to say. I admit there's a character named Bernkastel in Higurashi, but I don't remember there being a character named Lambdadelta. Why does anyone think [Lambda] has appeared in Higurashi? When human beings encounter an unknown thing, they would automatically regard it as something that exists in their memory. Those who've played Higurashi might have directly fallen into a trap.

There might be similarities between the characters, but how can the evident differences be ignored?

Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:59   Link #14272
Oliver
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That is to say, as long as new information given is "true" to the whole picture, the one giving the message isn't as relevant, and in a way it's better if the information is given from another point of view so the audience can see the stage in a different manner.
Oh, but they are. "true" to the whole picture every episode might be, but every author introduces lies of their own for their own reason. That is, no succeeding episode is more true by definition than the previous one.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:01   Link #14273
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And the point of "people can only use their own names" was what, exactly? If this isn't proof, then that red text has absolutely no meaning at all. You can only argue the contrary if this red text was completely useless.
I think he does think that. Erika's narration sort of implies that that red means that it's limited to one name per person. if we took it strictly from her point of view than neither Shkanon nor Erikaghost could work.

Not that I don't agree with you about Erika being a title. It's pretty silly, but it's still a valid supposition none the less.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:08   Link #14274
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I think he does think that. Erika's narration sort of implies that that red means that it's limited to one name per person. if we took it strictly from her point of view than neither Shkanon nor Erikaghost could work.
Well, I think she just ignored the multiple names thing because, with all the red Beato had put out, it would mean that two different people would have to be the same person since the beginning of all games (either Shkanon or Erika herself). If you don't already have Shkanon or ghost-Erika on your mind, like the love trials did for us, it's on the face of it a ridiculous assumption, especially since that scene in EP5 which seemed to show 18 people in a room.

In fact, you could say that this is the one thing that the final red text proves: that there are two people in the game who have always been one person.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:11   Link #14275
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They are not horns, it clearly says that they are not horns, and

Spoiler for higurashi:

[/SPOILER]
It says they aren't horns, but they LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME.

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:11   Link #14276
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I think Erika=Beatrice.

Both love mystery.
Both want to marry Battler.
Erika's actions in arc 6 aren't any different from Beato's trolling actions in arc 2.
Both are non existing people who claims to be responsible for murder.
Both are born from "images of perfect women" that Battler said (even tho Erika's description was a joke)
Both are linked with Jessica (Beatrice supposedly try to speak like Jessica, and Erika is like the Ushiromiya Heiress her parents wants her to be).
LD said in arc 5 that she'd switch roles. Human becomes the magic side and the witch becomes the detective.
Both (and also Kinzo) are dead/non-existing people met by Maria in the rose garden.
Erika's opinion about love is like the opposite of Beatrice's. It's like the result of a heartbroken Beatrice.
Erika only start appearing after Beatrice gives up.
Ep 6's ending more then anything seemed to imply they're two sides of one person.

The only problem is that it feels it would defy the Shkanontrice theories, since Kanon/Erika/Battler has to be three different people. Personally however I feel like Jessica has as many chances as Shkanon to be Beatrice, so I'm not really bothered by this.

Bit of a silly last thing, both Beatrice and Erika supposedly fell... to their death.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:14   Link #14277
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Oh, but they are. "true" to the whole picture every episode might be, but every author introduces lies of their own for their own reason. That is, no succeeding episode is more true by definition than the previous one.
Honestly, I wonder if maybe it isn't very important that there are different authors. By no means is Author Theory in any way confirmed, but it has been teased with ep6, so it's clearly something we're meant to look at.

We aren't meant to judge whether one author or another is "better" at understanding or portraying the truth than another. In that sense, even if we ignore the possibility of multiple authors, our ability to understand the "answer" shouldn't change, only our perceptiveness in noticing that the filters through which the "answer" passed were different.

As I've said before, I often wonder what the objectives of the Authors are. It's possible they all want different things. After all, Featherine said that the transmission of the truth would allow others to essentially write their own message bottle stories. She didn't say how they had to be written, or even what they must contain. There is some core element which existed in the works of "Ushiromiya Maria" and has transmitted to at least one author and, if we believe Featherine, possibly others (or, if nothing else, it will transmit to other authors in the future).

I don't think this core element is a fact. It could be, but I doubt it. It has to be something that is open to interpretation, so that different people can write different tales and still have it count as a "message bottle story." We know there are two, possibly three, possibly more different styles approaching the same set of conditions and rules. Yet all are considered part of Umineko. So what is the core element (or perhaps "theme"), how did the different authors discover it, and what makes them take liberties with the story while still considering their works "true?"
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:14   Link #14278
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In fact, you could say that this is the one thing that the final red text proves: that there are two people in the game who have always been one person.
Hmm...? How so? Wouldn't Shkanon lower the number of people to 16? Well, unless the Red Text accounts different personalities as people and that personalities can die. But, I don't think that's the case.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:23   Link #14279
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Hmm...? How so? Wouldn't Shkanon lower the number of people to 16? Well, unless the Red Text accounts different personalities as people and that personalities can die. But, I don't think that's the case.
The number is 17 if Erika is counted and Kinzo's corpse is not.

EP5 shows that there are 18 people in a room at one point in time, which represents everyone alive on the island. EP6 proves that this scene was completely impossible. Battler couldn't have mistaken one person for two, and there aren't enough people to fill up that room. So, two of the people in that scene must be the same person (since red text has been used applying to all characters, it's impossible for anyone to not exist at all).

Also, Battler must be lying, and there must be a reason for that lie.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:25   Link #14280
Judoh
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I don't think this core element is a fact. It could be, but I doubt it. It has to be something that is open to interpretation, so that different people can write different tales and still have it count as a "message bottle story." We know there are two, possibly three, possibly more different styles approaching the same set of conditions and rules. Yet all are considered part of Umineko. So what is the core element (or perhaps "theme"), how did the different authors discover it, and what makes them take liberties with the story while still considering their works "true?"
If there is a theme it's probably not something deep and complicated it's simple and obvious. If it's a theme about the murders than having them follow the epitaph in order is one possibility. Another is that someone who has an alibi is almost always being blamed like Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva, and Kinzo. Episode 6 seems to be the only one to deviate from the "tragic victim of the murder situation" theme.
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