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Old 2010-07-24, 01:15   Link #14501
Jan-Poo
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Well Battler certainly remembered his sin but what's important is that he understood the game. By doing so he basically won.

EP6 was just meant to be a closure, Battler already had the power to finish it since apparently he could just kick Bern and Erika out (possibly even Lambda?). Battler just needed to create a game in the same way Beatrice did and that would have become the proof of him having reached the truth.

Then things went bad because Erika prepared the logic error trap.

at the end of EP6 there shouldn't be anything else to do, Battler knows the truth, Beatrice is fully resurrected, the game is won and there is no opponent left.

However Featherinne seems to have the power to make the game continue nonetheless. How she can do that is everyone's guess.
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Old 2010-07-24, 01:18   Link #14502
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Isn't that because Battler's game didn't really solve anything at the end? Culprit, motive, and crime, have not been fully explained yet. Nor solved. And Featherine makes that point herself.
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Old 2010-07-24, 01:26   Link #14503
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The way I see it that's the why Featherinne makes the game continue, not the how.

Battler supposedly already reached the truth, but he's got no obligation to tell it to others. Just by proving he can be a Game Master is good enough.

Ironically that's the same thing Hachijo Tohya did.
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Old 2010-07-24, 01:31   Link #14504
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I wonder if Battler and Hachijo Tohya's truth are the same..
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Old 2010-07-24, 02:14   Link #14505
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Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
I wonder if Battler and Hachijo Tohya's truth are the same..
Hachijou seems to have reached Beatrice's truth, which is what Battler reached as well. Although if Hachijou's truth is different, maybe that's how she can continue the game on. Two conflicting truths can't exist at the same time, as the end of EP 5 showed (Erika's truth being different from Battler's).
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Old 2010-07-24, 04:18   Link #14506
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I have a question for Shkanon.
Is it possible for Kanon and Shannon to exist at the same time ?
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Old 2010-07-24, 04:44   Link #14507
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I cant say much about how to do it. Put them to sleep, a layer on their faces and lots of the sticky red substance over there. Battler did describe the scene at the beginning as something that he has seen in TV, anime, manga, movies, and the word make-up was mentioned twice or three times. If it's possible to do it on movies, it could be possible to do in real life, right? At this time, Battler can be considered incompetent enough to be fooled . The whole description of some of their front teeth not being there doesnt really help though, but i dont know much about make-up, theather, and stuffs like that to say that it's impossible to fake something like that.
The thing is in old movies you'd not really use a person, but a mannequin/doll/whatever for these type of gruesome scenes. A smashed face is not just blood mate. Just think about it. There's a person lying in the floor, you grab a hammer and start smashing that person's face. What do you get? A broken jaw, holes everywhere, you can see the insides of that person's head, amongst other things. If you think about it, that's not so easy to fake.

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For the corpse he never confirmed, I think Shannon's body was a bit hidden and Battler never got close enough to see her body. Only Hideyoshi did, close enough to see the ring at least.
That's my point, Battler never saw Shannon's corpse. The only ones who saw it were Hideyoshi and Kanon. Are you sure we can trust them? If you ask me, Shannon's corpse wasn't anywhere in that scene.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
at the end of EP6 there shouldn't be anything else to do, Battler knows the truth, Beatrice is fully resurrected, the game is won and there is no opponent left.
Didn't Ange say at the end that after the story ended (i.e. the Tea Party), Beatrice "went to sleep"? So, I think it went further from just resurrecting Beatrice, but the final 4 parts as well.

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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
I have a question for Shkanon.
Is it possible for Kanon and Shannon to exist at the same time ?
It depends on your take on it, I guess. You can say that since both personalities are there, then they exist at the same time, with them switching control over the body. Other people could argue that only the one in control counts as if it exists. If we follow the Red, it'd seem the latter theory holds better than the former.
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Old 2010-07-24, 05:40   Link #14508
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The thing is in old movies you'd not really use a person, but a mannequin/doll/whatever for these type of gruesome scenes. A smashed face is not just blood mate. Just think about it. There's a person lying in the floor, you grab a hammer and start smashing that person's face. What do you get? A broken jaw, holes everywhere, you can see the insides of that person's head, amongst other things. If you think about it, that's not so easy to fake.


That's my point, Battler never saw Shannon's corpse. The only ones who saw it were Hideyoshi and Kanon. Are you sure we can trust them? If you ask me, Shannon's corpse wasn't anywhere in that scene.


Didn't Ange say at the end that after the story ended (i.e. the Tea Party), Beatrice "went to sleep"? So, I think it went further from just resurrecting Beatrice, but the final 4 parts as well.


It depends on your take on it, I guess. You can say that since both personalities are there, then they exist at the same time, with them switching control over the body. Other people could argue that only the one in control counts as if it exists. If we follow the Red, it'd seem the latter theory holds better than the former.
Okay, it was to know how it deals with "There are 17 people"
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Old 2010-07-24, 06:33   Link #14509
moichispa
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The way I see it that's the why Featherinne makes the game continue, not the how.

Battler supposedly already reached the truth, but he's got no obligation to tell it to others. Just by proving he can be a Game Master is good enough.

Ironically that's the same thing Hachijo Tohya did.
mm Beatrice started the 1st game. Lambda were able to continue it because she has more power a a witch and knew the truth on ep5, Battler did the same on ep6.

Featherine knows the truth and have ever more power than Lambda and Battler so It dies not sound very strange to me she being able to continue it. Also the culprit have not be found by the reader and also it haven't been stopped.
(Just suppositions don't take it too serious)

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That's my point, Battler never saw Shannon's corpse. The only ones who saw it were Hideyoshi and Kanon. Are you sure we can trust them? If you ask me, Shannon's corpse wasn't anywhere in that scene.
Also the reaction of Kanon on that scene is so calm, really very different from Battler or the others. And vastly different for the one where Kanon is killed. This last scene might be a fantasy one but as it where say in ep5 pieces can't do thing that weren't supposed to do. So maybe Shanon were killed not in the first twilight time but after that, and Kanon knew it.
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Old 2010-07-24, 07:17   Link #14510
Renall
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I don't think Meta-Battler was ever going to be "released." There exists perhaps some possibility for an end condition world in which Battler survives in "reality," but Meta-Battler/BATTLER was never going to experience it himself, just like ANGE was never going to experience her family returning home.

I'm not convinced Featherine found the truth, but I'm not convinced Battler found the "whole" truth either, and I'm not sure Beatrice ever knew all of the truth. It's pretty hard to dispute that at least Battler, and possibly others, have reached Beatrice's truth. However, as has been suggested before, it's possible Beatrice doesn't know who the true culprit is. She may have some ideas, but the true killer may, in the end, be a mystery even to her.

It may not matter to Beatrice and Battler at this point. But it matters to Featherine and Bernkastel, so they're willing to continue the game until they get those answers. The question is, who will be with them? I can't see Lambdadelta sitting this one out, but I do wonder who else will be there. If Battler and Beatrice are around, is it because they're choosing to remain, or because they can't get off that easy?
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Old 2010-07-24, 07:33   Link #14511
Jan-Poo
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Lambda would never miss a game where Bern is the Game Master.
As for Battler he will probably be invited either by Featherinne or Bernkastel, most probably as a simple spectator, the same way Bern and Lambda were invited by Beatrice before.

I don't think that Featherinne has the power to snatch Beatrice's game from Battler, and it would be lame if Battler's power over the gameboard could be taken away from him so easily after all he's done to gain it.

That's why I believe Featherinne's gameboard will be a duplicate. It fits with the fact that her human counterpart created forgeries of the messages in the bottles.
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Old 2010-07-24, 10:03   Link #14512
UsagiTenpura
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This is likely incorrect, but here's an attempt at describing the "mythology" of umineko.

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Old 2010-07-24, 10:58   Link #14513
Klarth
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This is just random speculation, it might not work at all, but...

The Epitaph of the Portrait has always reminded me of the story of the Hebrew people escaping Egypt, for several reasons:

Firstly, the Old Testament is mentioned several times, although mostly in the early arcs.

The Hebrews were trying to reach their "Promised Land", which, to me, reminded me strongly of the Golden Land.

As for the Beloved Hometown... The Hebrew people were trying to escape, but I think this Epitaph, if it does reflect on the events of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, was actually written to the Egyptians. More on that later, I guess.

For the sweetfish river, I feel the alternate reading "Bountiful River" works better- referring, of course, to the Nile river. Following it downstream will lead you past several branches; following the correct one would, in fact, lead you to Moses and Aaron, who lead the Hebrews outside, to their "Promised Land" I think this could be in reference to how some Egyptians did believe in Moses and Aaron, and converted to being Hebrew. I am not sure what the "shore" is; it may be something, my memory of this story is rather fuzzy.

And, the ten twilights. Here is where I start to get confused, even though everything proceeding this appeared to fit quite well. I can think of two things the ten twilights can refer to: either the ten plagues of Egypt, or the ten commandments given by G-d

The ten plagues of Egypt happened before they were even thrust out of Egypt, so it doesn't fit well chronologically. The Ten Plagues don't seem to have that much of a connection, although the 9th Plague that struck Egypt was darkness- surrounding the Egyptians with complete darkness for three days. This fits in two ways- the ninth twilight is always mysterious, hidden under "darkness", or, it could represent how Rokkenjima itself was engulfed in darkness for three days (October 4th, 5th, and 6th). The Tenth Plague is when the Hebrew's long fight to be let out of Egypt finally succeeded, and they could begin traveling to their promised land.

The ten commandments could also fit. It fits better chronologically, as it was after they were banished from Egypt that they received the ten commandments. The Tablets upon which the Ten Commandments were written (or the ten commandments themselves) could be the "Key to the Golden Land", as these commandments dictated exactly how the Israelites should've acted if they wanted to reach their promised land. It was how they should act as they wander in the wilderness; fitting the line, "He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.".

The Ten Commandments are as follows:

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
I don't see any close connection, really, between the first twilights and this commandment. Perhaps there is? The First Twilights, I guess, start to define "Beatrice", which could make sense.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Again, not much of a connection. Why the two who are close?

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
A perfect fit. An alternate reading is, "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God". This is what really strikes me as strange.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Another perfect fit. A child never dies on the 4th twilight; it's always an adult or a servant. And yes, October 4th was Saturday, so they were all working then (the adults are here simply for discussion of money, not to relax).

5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
This one isn't as perfect. Kanon, Gohda, Hideyoshi, and I believe Shannon?
EDIT: Looking back, Kanon, Hideyoshi, and Shannon all gave up part of their names, Kanon even saying he'd forgotten it.

6. You shall not murder.
Genji, George, Kyrie, Nanjo. This doesn't seem to be a pattern, but maybe this is something crucial as to determining the Murderers?

7. You shall not commit adultery.
Krauss Twice, Nanjo Twice. Perhaps they did? Again, there is no pattern.

8. You shall not steal.
Kumasawa, Kumasawa, Natsuhi, and Supposedly Kyrie. Didn't Kumasawa once do something that led to her no longer allowed to wear the one-winged eagle? I don't remember Natsuhi stealing anything, but Kyrie could have "stolen" Rudolf.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Or, do not lie. Could the ninth twilight just be a huge lie? Or, is there something more? Regardless, this one makes sense to me.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Do not covet. Perhaps this is the core of Umineko. Is it because Kinzo coveted Beatrice? After reading Episode 6, I feel the story leans more and more towards love being the central element...

As for the last parts, I can't really extract much from that... While the two "resurrection" treasures do coincide with what the old testament promises, the first one, about the gold, doesn't seem to fit anything; same with the fourth.

Well, that's all I have. I don't know if this is worth anything, but it was pretty interesting in how much fit, so I'm just throwing this out there.

Last edited by Klarth; 2010-07-24 at 13:16. Reason: (Remembered something new)
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Old 2010-07-24, 11:02   Link #14514
Used Can
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I don't think the people in Rokkenjima can find a happy end. To begin with, are we sure there are kakeras in Umineko? We have several stories, but unlike in Higurashi, all of these are come down to 2 stories written by "Beatrice" and a large amount of forgeries (which, may, or may not, contain the truth contained in the ones written by Beatrice).

I think the whole deal about leaving the Meta-World, simply means opening the cat's box. In other words, allowing the dead to rest in peace.
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Old 2010-07-24, 11:20   Link #14515
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I don't think the people in Rokkenjima can find a happy end. To begin with, are we sure there are kakeras in Umineko?
Well, if you can count anything mentioned in the Meta-World as truth, Bern seems to have experienced quite a few kakeras (why doesn't anyone ever just say "fragments" is beyond me.)
And if you count in a couple of fan-theories, the Higurashi main plot was possibly a(n unrelated) game also played by witches. Take the theory that Bern is an amalgamation of Rika's murdered past selves into a new being; she would be living proof of fragments existing in the "When they Cry"-verse.
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Old 2010-07-24, 13:44   Link #14516
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And if you count in a couple of fan-theories, the Higurashi main plot was possibly a(n unrelated) game also played by witches. Take the theory that Bern is an amalgamation of Rika's murdered past selves into a new being; she would be living proof of fragments existing in the "When they Cry"-verse.
It's not just me a lot of people think that the Higurashi thing is a troll. A lot of the descriptions Bern and Lambda give just don't match up. And Bern says herself in Higurashi that Rika and her are different people so that's not even a fan theory.

kakera theory is still possible and has a few advantages, but it's also unlikely given the stuff suggesting Umineko's fiction. It's difficult to explain the message bottles and authors like Hachijou Tohya without some kind of fiction/author theory.
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Old 2010-07-24, 13:45   Link #14517
Used Can
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I honestly think whatever Bern and 34 may do is irrelevant to Rokkenjima. In fact, can we even say the Meta-World actually exist? I mean, we saw Ange and Hachijō look at its events. So, I think the Meta-World is also parts of the stories that have been written.

Additionally, we were told that Bern ended up that way because her GM didn't finish the story she started, and thus Bern was forced to finish it. In Higurashi, whilst Rika remembered all of the games, she never went through any kind of Meta experience. And in the assumption she had a Meta self we usually didn't see, that should be Frederica, and she didn't seem like that bad of a person, if you ask me.
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Old 2010-07-24, 13:47   Link #14518
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Sorry, I should have worded myself better: Bern would be a result of the Rika debacle, not actually being Rika herself. I know she's stated that she's neither Rika or Oyashiro-sama.
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Old 2010-07-24, 13:51   Link #14519
Judoh
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I'm just not buying the Higurashi connection sorry. Not even the Lambda tips are really convincing. It's better to assume there is a game between the two of them that hasn't been told to us.
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Old 2010-07-24, 15:08   Link #14520
Raiza Sunozaki
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I'm just not buying the Higurashi connection sorry. Not even the Lambda tips are really convincing. It's better to assume there is a game between the two of them that hasn't been told to us.
Agreed. Ryuukishi's thrown us the Rules X Y Z as a tool to help in solving the mysteries, but other than that, I see all the Higurashi connections as fanservice.
That said, I don't doubt the connections. I honestly think Bern and Lambda have some connection to Rika and <spoiler>, be it witch incarnations or created by Featherline in the image of two characters from a game she enjoyed watching. And yeah, I also think there's a game inbetween Higurashi and Umineko, where the Logic Error/hell takes place.
However, all connections are irrelevant to solving Umineko, and are just for fans to distract themselves with while Ryuukishi prides himself over his clever ploys.
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