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Old 2010-07-25, 09:11   Link #14561
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, how about Kanon telling Jessica his real name and confessing his love for her as soon as she got off the boat on the morning of the first day? Whereas he even try until he's dying in some earlier episodes?
Oddly enough, the forgeries are pretty much some kind of fanfiction. (I mean canonically, that's what they are.) Ideally they should stem from the same truth as the originals, then develop something new from there. Additionally, the characters shouldn't behave in a manner that is grossly against their personalities as shown in the original work.

In short there are some restrictions if you want it to be good and well-accepted, but you can take some liberties.

EDIT: Incidentally, if EP3-6 are all forgeries by Hachijo as we're told, then the truth is reachable from EP1 and EP2 alone, because she figured it out and penned the rest. Crazy. Or maybe she's wrong and we all got mega trolled.
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Old 2010-07-25, 11:06   Link #14562
Uberzaki
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Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard!

I consider every chapter (from the last 'fragment crack animation' to the next) an interpretation.

I have thought of each episode as having several interpretations and that they are badly pasted togethor and so lacking context and any proper chronicalisation. Now personally, I don't like these new Knox rules because Battler breaks several of them, but this one rule has stuck in my head.
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Old 2010-07-25, 11:15   Link #14563
DgBarca
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I have a problem with EP5.
Why Battler was blocked by Knox's 2nd!! It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique! If you would show that Kinzo has died with the red truth, then I demand that you display proof of a human's truth which could be used to make that point...! and forced to use red ?
I mean..."Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me(Battler)!!
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Old 2010-07-25, 12:16   Link #14564
Jan-Poo
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The most common interpretation is that it was a specific rule of the trial: "humans cannot use red truths in this trial". If Virgilia used that red instead it should have worked (barring from Dlanor sealing the red) in fact Battler soon after wants Virgilia to repeat the red he just told but Virgilia for some reasons made herself unavailable at that point.
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Old 2010-07-25, 12:25   Link #14565
Arachanox
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
...but Virgilia for some reasons made herself unavailable at that point.
Rather than making herself unavailable, I was under the impression that Bern removed all possibilities of defeat by silencing/removing everyone from the court that could have made a statement that would overturn Erika's truth.
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Old 2010-07-25, 12:59   Link #14566
chronotrig
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@Kylon99:
If you're talking about the love trial in EP6, then there are plenty of reasons that we can guess at that explain the change. We don't need proof as to what the specific change is, just enough clues to lead us on the right track.

For example, let's say that the love trial represents the fake murders. If so, then Beatrice, Shannon, Kanon, Battler, Jessica, and George are likely the brains of the operation. We then see them going around to all of the "victims" and discussing love with them, which might represent them recruiting people to play the victim part in the drama. If Shkanontrice is true, this turn of events would hardly be possible without Sayo's secret getting out. Actually, since there's a good chance that Sayo was connected to the themed murders in previous games, the very fact that the siblings are helping out with fake murders seems to hint that Sayo did tell them something that she didn't in previous games.

The cause for this confession is a bit harder to place. Personally, I think it started after Erika bullied Maria about magic. Shannon was clearly shaken up by it, and the siblings may have discussed the matter further when they left the room (and it might have been easy for some of them, particularly Battler, to connect Shannon with the cup magic trick once they knew it existed).

In this case, a secret—a lie—is being kept between Battler, Jessica, George, and Sayo. So, as long as that secret goes unexposed, their scenes can be falsified at will.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-07-25 at 13:16.
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:09   Link #14567
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
For example, let's say that the love trial represents the fake murders. If so, then Beatrice, Shannon, Kanon, Battler, Jessica, and George are likely the brains of the operation. We then see them going around to all of the "victims" and discussing love with them, which might represent them recruiting people to play the victim part in the drama. If Shkanontrice is true, this turn of events would hardly be possible without Sayo's secret getting out. Actually, since there's a good chance that Sayo was connected to the themed murders in previous games, the very fact that the siblings are helping out with fake murders seems to hint that Sayo did tell them something that she didn't in previous games.
Actually, I think this explains why at least one of the room was empty. I also think the cousins were in on the fakery as well. So at this point, the people who should know about the fakery without any intervention at all:

George
Jessica
Shannon
Kanon
Kumasawa
Nanjo
Genji
Rudolf

That leaves Krauss and Hideyoshi. Gouda probably already knows. Basically in both rooms there is only one person who, although has a gun and is in control, can be told about the fakery. So there's a high probability people wouldn't have stayed trapped in the room for long. And if they were told during the episode anyways then basically they were just waiting for Erika to leave.

(As for some of them, its the best opportunity to carry out their own little schemes... 8) )
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:13   Link #14568
Judoh
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The only reason you have Rudolf on that list is because he thinks he's going to die soon right? Sorry that's not enough for me.

Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE!!
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:26   Link #14569
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The only reason you have Rudolf on that list is because he thinks he's going to die soon right? Sorry that's not enough for me.

Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE!!
Actually, he's on the list because he was the one to retrieve Battler with a forehead-to-ground apology. Not something you normally do, even for your son. Battler's survival in all twilights for EP1-5 is pretty low (enough for a mystery novel) enough to show that the Epitaph fakers are interested in him. So it's most likely Rudolf was asked by the Epitaph fakers to get him back rather than them deciding to just wait and see if Battler would bother coming back himself. Not likely unless their situation was solved.

So, while Rudolf knows he's going to 'die' in EP1, it may not apply to all episodes. (It's not like he's psychic or something.) But, in all episodes he should at least know the servants are scheming something. It depends on how much he was told.

I just think he'd have to have been told a bit more before he'd go through with such an apology to get Battler back. None of the siblings struck me as someone who would go through such lengths, even to get a wayward son back..
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:39   Link #14570
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, he's on the list because he was the one to retrieve Battler with a forehead-to-ground apology. Not something you normally do, even for your son.
Oh right I forgot about that. I guess that's a good way to explain that, but are sure there's nothing else that could explain it besides a conspiracy to fake his death? I just think he'd have to be threatened or bribed pretty badly to agree to something like that. if that's why then Rudolf is being pretty selfish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Battler's survival in all twilights for EP1-5 is pretty low (enough for a mystery novel) enough to show that the Epitaph fakers are interested in him. So it's most likely Rudolf was asked by the Epitaph fakers to get him back rather than them deciding to just wait and see if Battler would bother coming back himself. Not likely unless their situation was solved.
You keep saying that, but have you actually compared it to the survival rates in other mystery novels to make sure? I get the impression that the detective and the Doctor are needed for a majority of the story in a lot of mystery novels for narrative convenience. Mostly so we have people to discover and inspect the crime scenes. So it'd be natural for them not to be the first few people that are murdered.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-25 at 14:55.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:09   Link #14571
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard!

I consider every chapter (from the last 'fragment crack animation' to the next) an interpretation.

I have thought of each episode as having several interpretations and that they are badly pasted togethor and so lacking context and any proper chronicalisation. Now personally, I don't like these new Knox rules because Battler breaks several of them, but this one rule has stuck in my head.
I kind of like the Knox rules... it lays out the groundwork or ruleset of the game, and makes a lot more sense I think when you take the actual Knox commandments/decalogue into consideration...

Quote:
1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know.
2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
#5 is a knock at Dr. Fu Manchu and not particularly relevant, but the rest are fairly self explanatory. In context #1 could theoretically rule out a fair number of suspects. #2, #3, and #4 reoccur quite a bit in theme, if not directly.

Quote:
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective himself must not commit the crime.
8. The detective is bound to declare any clues which he may discover.
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.
#10 hasn't been relevant, but #9 is the dumb sidekick rule at it's core... basically allowing the author to guide and/or respond to the readers with someone to represent them. Of course that allows for limitless red herrings. #6 thru #8 we know pretty well.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:13   Link #14572
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh right I forgot about that. I guess that's a good way to explain that, but are sure there's nothing else that could explain it besides a conspiracy to fake his death? I just think he'd have to be threatened or bribed pretty badly to agree to something like that. if that's why then Rudolf is being pretty selfish.
I think he was more bribed. I take it most of the siblings are not people who could be cowed (for long) with threats. They'll find ways to get back at you. 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You keep saying that, but have you actually compared it to the survival rates in other mystery novels to make sure? I get the impression that the detective and the Doctor are needed for a majority of the story in a lot of mystery novels for narrative convenience. Mostly so we have people to discover and inspect the crime scenes. So it'd be natural for them not to be the first few people that are murdered.

I think you'd have a hard time finding a mystery novel where the Doctor and the detective are killed off first.
That's true. Without the detective, the story just ends rather abruptly. Or stumbles like in EP6.

However, most other detective novels usually have only one incident of murder, except for And Then There Were None. In that case everyone was murdered, including the doctor (although he was still left alive until he was no longer needed) and the detective didn't show up until the end... 8) ... EDIT: And then he supposedly didn't even solve it either, right? It was the confession from the killer...

Well, either way, it goes to show that Battler is special. (And Nanjo... less special. ) However, I would think that if Ryukishi had the detective survive long series of murders, that he'd need to come up with something more than just, 'He's the detective.' At least on the gameboard the idea of 'the detective' is not known to the pieces... there has to be some kind of other logic at work on that level...

I think the clues of his sin from 6 years ago have something to do with that logic.
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:18   Link #14573
Used Can
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Well, I think that can be explained by saying that, whoever Beatrice's "host" is had them spare Battler. She seems to be the owner of the gold, and based on what we saw on EP4, she also seems to manage a fuck-ton of money. So, whoever it is working with her or having her do these things, may have complied to the request from her to spare Battler. This was quite likely agreed before October 4th, since "Beatrice" must have written those letters before that day. So, she could already tell Battler would survive until the end. There's also the possibility she committed all the crimes herself, and allowed Battler to survive until the end.

As a result, since he was the detective in the two stories she wrote, the ones who made the forgeries may have followed this pattern as well. At the very least, until EP4, Hachijō did.
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Old 2010-07-25, 23:50   Link #14574
LaplaceNoMa
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So, let's return to the topic of forgeries. Once again, if Hachijou was able to write ep3-6 stories, she was able to reach Beato's truth by ep1 and ep2.

The most strange thing about that is 07151129. Even now we still don't have any convincing theories regarding that, but Hachijou supposedly knew the meaning behind that number just from the original message bottles.
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Old 2010-07-26, 00:27   Link #14575
ameskitty
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I have some thoughts after re-reading EP1 with foreshadowing in mind. Giving credit where credit is due, this idea came (aside from my boredom with summer drudgery) almost directly off of Kylon99's pointing out of a scene where Nappi suggests that Shannon is dressing up as Beato and Rudolf goes to "reapply his makeup". So...here's a long list of possibly mundane observations. Some of them have probably been pointed out in the past, but it might be useful to somebody, I dunno : P.
Spoiler for long:

This doesn't really suggest any motives, and I still can't figure out Kanon in general , but these are just a few things that really caught me as I was reading. I wasn't expecting to find this many, at least.
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Old 2010-07-26, 00:36   Link #14576
LaplaceNoMa
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Quote:
Maria does not think of the scorpion amulets by herself - George prompts her.
I want to add something in your place: he is also the one to mark the rose.
As far as I understand, this marked rose (as well as its dissapearance) is a given 'rule' of every game and therefore it's vital for the progression of the game.
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Old 2010-07-26, 00:42   Link #14577
LaplaceNoMa
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I want to add something in your place: he is also the one to mark the rose.
As far as I understand, this marked rose (as well as its dissapearance) is a given 'rule' of every game and therefore it's vital for the progression of the game.
Also this:

Quote:
sort of on the other hand, was Jessica somehow involved in the 1st twilight ? She seemed to know exactly where to go and lead everybody to the storehouse. Of course, she lives there, but it still seemed kind of odd.
You forgot to mention the charm on Natsuhi's door. The only person who should've known about it is Jessica (aside from Natsuhi herself).

However we can take two scenes with 'Kumasawa watching from the shadows' as a hint regarding the other possible person who knew about the charm.
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Old 2010-07-26, 00:43   Link #14578
Judoh
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Quote:
--- George notices Maria pulling the letter out first.
By the way this is consistent theme in episodes 1-3. George notices the letters both times in episode 1 and 2 (and the bars of gold). They kind of skip over that in episode 3 by starting the scene with Maria reading it, but it's probably the same kind of pattern.

you also noticed a couple of things I missed. Thanks for the pictures.

Quote:
* Speaking of Kanon, why was he spying on the family conference? It could've just been a device to show Kinzo's RAGE, but I don't know...
Kanon is shown to report what's being talked about at the family conference to Kinzo in the later episodes too I think.
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Old 2010-07-26, 00:46   Link #14579
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I made an explanation before about the umbrella question scene, too lazy to retype it but basically it rules out everyone but the servants as people who could have delivered the umbrella to Maria. Battler was the alibi for the children, while Natsuhi was the alibi for the adults I believe. Although Natsuhi is how you say 'nuts; she's been proven to be innocent thanks to Battler's red and we could trust her about the location of the adults. Only the servants and Nanjo could have delivered that letter and the umbrella.
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Old 2010-07-26, 01:50   Link #14580
UsagiTenpura
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I might be wrong but I think like 90% of Beato's trick involves tricking us in relation to the time-scale of events.

For Maria's umbrella and the letter she NEVER claimed she got it from Beatrice in the time between when Rosa hit her and the time Rosa + Battler and cie went to find her (referring to arc 1 scenario only, but I could make similar arguments about the others).

Battler actually at first thought she was smart enough to carry an umbrella with her, meaning he wouldn't (for a reason or another) have noticed if she it had beforehand. The letter is even easier to conceal.

As thus... everyone's alibies are reset.

Also in your argument, Natsuhi wasn't everyone's alibi, she left the conference early on.
And Rosa was both the last to be seen near Maria and (tho Battler found her first) the first to be seen again near the rose garden.
... thinking of it it's interesting to think that, supposedly, Rosa was sleeping in the parlor while the meeting supposedly took place.
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