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Old 2010-07-29, 13:57   Link #14781
UsagiTenpura
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Actually the core of why I dislike Shkanon is...
The theory has been up in the air since early question arcs but got gradually stronger. I used to think it was possible (and still do) but wasn't too sure.
However in arc 6 it sorta throws it in our face so obviously that it makes me feel we're being fed what we want to believe.

It's like it tells us clearly about Shkanontrice but leaves enough doubt to let us think it might not be the truth. If it's the answer then it's the answer, but it feels like it's a bigger challenge to find a truth that doesn't rely on it. Nontheless if it's the truth it shouldn't be called hints, but rather an uncomfirmed fact told to us. So the question is more "is it what he's trying to make us believe" or "is it the truth".

Then I started to think more about it and the only way I can personally swallow Shkanon well is if well at least a bunch of the others knows of it. You'd think Jessica would've noticed after 3 years that she never saw them together, or overall makes you wonder why it seems common knowledge they're so close if no one ever saw them together or knows the truth. Considering things like fake first twilights, I don't think it's impossible. After all Shkanon or Shkanontrice involves Hideyoshi and Nanjo lying on uuh "her" behalf in arc 1, Rudolph and whoever was with him when they found the corpses in arc 3, and a whole lot of people in arc 4 and 5 as well.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:07   Link #14782
Judoh
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By proxy though If the guestroom does not exist Kanon cannot exist in the guestroom. So 'personality death' and 'Kanon does not exist because he's a corpse' don't have to be factors. And we're shown that nothing was left except the closet when Beato made her red about that.

Not saying I like that either it's a cheap trick.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:09   Link #14783
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
It's like it tells us clearly about Shkanontrice but leaves enough doubt to let us think it might not be the truth. If it's the answer then it's the answer, but it feels like it's a bigger challenge to find a truth that doesn't rely on it. Nontheless if it's the truth it shouldn't be called hints, but rather an uncomfirmed fact told to us. So the question is more "is it what he's trying to make us believe" or "is it the truth".
There's another possibility though. It's possible that Shkanontrice is true, but that there's much more to the truth besides just that one theory. After all, that was the case for "Kinzo is dead", which was probably going to be the big reveal for EP5 originally (Ryuukishi said that he moved that reveal to EP4 since many people had already guessed it). If you look closely, EP5 still does have that as a big reveal, but Erika's the only one surprised. If Ryuukishi was willing to tell us that much of the truth then, what's so surprising about him moving a little deeper into the story in the second core arc?

In one of Ryuukishi's interviews, he said that the core arcs should lead people almost all the way to the answer, but not quite all the way. That people would have to think for themselves to get the last bit. I think the way Shkanontrice is presented fits this perfectly, especially since it'd be much harder to think of it if not for the forums talking about it all the time.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:15   Link #14784
ferthepoet
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well one possible explanation although as unlikely as Shkanontrice is something like... there are two plots that involve murders one group threaths to kill kannon or jessica if the other does not cooperate with their and the other group does the same with shannon or george so only one group of murderers can supposedly survive in the end
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:15   Link #14785
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Battler couldn't control his piece in EP5 because he only watched the replay and never played at all. The reliable viewpoint, I'll grant you, but we have no idea how the pieces were controlled in the first run-through.
And which side gains control of Battler's piece when he isn't using it? The witch's side. Sure, it isn't confirmed, but look at Piece-Battler's actions throughout Episode 5. He never once fights alongside Erika, the human side's flagship piece, and even saves Beato from Kinzo's study. Lambda uses him to keep the witch's side alive, that much is clear to me.

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It's impossible for Battler to be the murderer in EP5 or any other game.
Irrelevant. I wasn't saying he was the muderer, I said the possibility that he was is presented. And at that time, he was a piece under control of the the witch's side.

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Personally, I think it makes for a much more interesting story if each player can control his or her own piece. It means there can be a meaningful conflict in choosing how the game plays out, gives us a clear way for Lambda to have controlled Beatrice in EP1-4 without being the Game Master, and maybe even shows us how the final game will be played. If the Game Master really does control everything, then all appearance of competition is false in the core arcs. I'd rather that not be false.
I'm saying normally they can. Episode 1 aside, Meta-Battler has full control over his piece through out the rest of the question Episodes, occasional moments when he gives up and relinquishes control of his piece aside. It creates a fair fight, which is what Beato's game is supposed to be.
In Episode 5, Erika, as a puppet of Bern, controlled the piece Furude Erika on the gameboard, playing against Lambda who was Game Master and played the witch's side. The game was Lambda and Bern's game, since Erika just danced to Bern's whims.
In Episode 6, there is no longer any difficulty level. Why? Because it is no longer a proper game. Battler constructed the gameboard with the sole purpose of proving he understood Beato. It's not meant to be solved, but to show. However, he needed an opponent to play against, since despite not being a game, it is a gameboard. That's why he played against Erika, who believed that this was a proper game, probably due to Bern and Lambda's encouraging. Then when he realized Beato had not been revived the way he had expected, he used his gameboard and tricked Erika to produce the risk large enough to revive her to her original form.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:26   Link #14786
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In one of Ryuukishi's interviews, he said that the core arcs should lead people almost all the way to the answer, but not quite all the way. That people would have to think for themselves to get the last bit. I think the way Shkanontrice is presented fits this perfectly, especially since it'd be much harder to think of it if not for the forums talking about it all the time.
Really? I have to disagree with that. It's just my interpretation of Episode 6, but I felt the entire Episode was shoving Shkanon down the readers' throats. I'll admit, if it were true, the subtle hints to it throughout the first four Episodes would have been splendid clues, fitting right in with a high-class mystery novel, regardless of how much I find the theory screws up the story.
Episode 6 brings out almost a brutal all-out attack in the name of Shkanon, I think. The duel especially, where they are called each other's half, telling the other they are in the way, and finally having one go down. Everything about Episode 6 screamed Shkanon to me. Which is why I can't accept it as the core of Beato's heart. If it's so important to her, why would Battler go around parading it throughout his game? I'd think he of all people would understand it needs to be kept safe.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:27   Link #14787
UsagiTenpura
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You know it'd be sorta interesting if we learned it was always meant to be fake murders and the real murderer is actually Bern's piece from the start, trying to crash the game...

About the explosion vs volcano.
The explosion has a lot of favor because well... first it's what's written in the end of arc 6 in Erika's tips, and also because it's something Beatrice could predict. (It's interesting to think the only time Beatrice ever said in red she was killing someone was Battler with said explosion). The biggest problem of the explosion theory is that it's hard to create an explosion that will wipe out a large part of Rokkenjima and make it look like an accident to the outside world. Unless of course, it is an accident, but then it makes it as unpredictable as a Volcano.

The Volcano side has the problem of being unpredictable, but then again so was the storm keeping them there for the weekend. Then again arc 4 showed us how everyone could die the first evening so the storm isn't that necessary. It does seem to have more hints pointing toward it tho. Namely "the gateways to hell mouth"and the "eyes of lava" of goats, and well the storm explains there's no seaguls but if we ant to think it hints of something more, it could hint a natural disaster. Also there's the precedent of a natural disaster causing Kinzo to become heir akin to how the Rokkenjima situation makes Ange into the heiress.

I think for now both theories are sorta equally valid.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:34   Link #14788
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Really? I have to disagree with that. It's just my interpretation of Episode 6, but I felt the entire Episode was shoving Shkanon down the readers' throats. I'll admit, if it were true, the subtle hints to it throughout the first four Episodes would have been splendid clues, fitting right in with a high-class mystery novel, regardless of how much I find the theory screws up the story.
Episode 6 brings out almost a brutal all-out attack in the name of Shkanon, I think. The duel especially, where they are called each other's half, telling the other they are in the way, and finally having one go down. Everything about Episode 6 screamed Shkanon to me. Which is why I can't accept it as the core of Beato's heart. If it's so important to her, why would Battler go around parading it throughout his game? I'd think he of all people would understand it needs to be kept safe.
See, that's the thing though. This thread is absolute, undeniable proof that Ryuukishi didn't push Shkanontrice too hard. Before EP6 translation was completed, the majority of people here didn't think Shkanon was likely at all, despite what those of us who played the game said about it being very strongly hinted at. If you can step back and assume that Shkanon is true, then Ryuukishi really did need to make it clear in EP6. Not just what the theory was, but clues about how it might have worked, since the obvious Shkanon theory is probably not the real answer.

And that's another thing. If Shkanon was just being shown as a troll, Ryuukishi would just need to include hints pointing to it directly. However, he also included pages and pages of hints about how it would work, though a lot of this is stuff most readers probably miss on the first time through.

Also, let's not forget that all of us are very biased. I'm pretty sure that every single person on this board heard about Shkanon before reading EP6, and I'm willing to bet that most of you heard about how EP6 supposedly hinted towards Shkanontrice before you read it. Until the very end, the clues are the kind Ryuukishi is best at: things that seem inexplicable at first but completely obvious once you know what they're pointing to. I managed to read EP6 before hearing about Shkanontrice, and though I did pick up on the clues before the final love trial, I wasn't at all sure that Ryuukishi was really going there until the climax.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:48   Link #14789
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
See, that's the thing though. This thread is absolute, undeniable proof that Ryuukishi didn't push Shkanontrice too hard.
Not really, the point is that if we learn in arc 7 (or possibly 8?) that Skanontrice is true, then no one will be surprised anymore. Actually I don't think Shkanon itself would've been very surprising anymore, even if it was clearly confirmed in arc 6.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:49   Link #14790
Raiza Sunozaki
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Also, let's not forget that all of us are very biased. I'm pretty sure that every single person on this board heard about Shkanon before reading EP6, and I'm willing to bet that most of you heard about how EP6 supposedly hinted towards Shkanontrice before you read it. Until the very end, the clues are the kind Ryuukishi is best at: things that seem inexplicable at first but completely obvious once you know what they're pointing to. I managed to read EP6 before hearing about Shkanontrice, and though I did pick up on the clues before the final love trial, I wasn't at all sure that Ryuukishi was really going there until the trial at the end.
Yes, we are all biased. There's no such thing as a neutral human. A majority of the people here seem to hate Shkanon. So naturally we're going to look for alternatives.
And yes, thanks to this thread, I spoiled myself quite a bit, and as you said, I heard Episode 6 was supposed to hint towards Shkanon. And as that, I'd be fine, since all the other Episodes seem to hint towards Shkanon. It would just be another hint in the long list of ones I don't need to take seriously.
However, I didn't expect Episode 6 to, as I said, shove Shkanon down it's readers' throats. I knew the love trial was coming, I knew about the impossible Kanon rescue. Hell, I argued about them before I read Episode 6. What I didn't expect was all the constant Shkanon themes throughout the Episode. To me, there was more stuff to support Shkanon in Episode 6 than all the other Episodes put together.
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure if I knew about the Shkanon theory and hadn't spoiled Episode 6 for me, reading it would've had the same "shoving down throat" experience I had with spoiling it for myself. The "inexplicable clues" you speak of weren't inexplicable; anyone who was remotely familiar with the Shkanon Theory or had even the slightest notion that they were the same person could pick up on them.
The entirety of Episode 6 did nothing to convince me Shkanon is the truth, in fact, it only led me to believe that it's supposed to be a huge red herring contructed to distract people from a truth very similar to it. Believe what you will, but that's what I find the truth.
And there's still my previous question. If Shkanon is really the core of Beato's heart, why is Battler parading it around his game? If it's so important, he should keep it a secret.
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Old 2010-07-29, 14:58   Link #14791
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Not really, the point is that if we learn in arc 7 (or possibly 8?) that Skanontrice is true, then no one will be surprised anymore. Actually I don't think Shkanon itself would've been very surprising anymore, even if it was clearly confirmed in arc 6.
Yes, but a lot of other things have been revealed outright. Kinzo's death. The nature of magic. The explosion. The point is that Shkanon can't be the last secret. That's what we have to look forward to in EP7.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:05   Link #14792
UsagiTenpura
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I'm going to hate myself to write something that supports Shkanon but...

If we think of it that way...
Arc 5 was about the how dunnit.
Arc 6 was about the who dunnit.
And arc 7 would then be about the why dunnit.

It sorta makes sense as a structure to unveil the truth I guess...
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:08   Link #14793
chronotrig
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Once you spoil yourself, you lose the ability to objectively tell whether something is too easy to spot or not. It's not worth arguing with anyone childish enough to not realize this fact.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:09   Link #14794
Judoh
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I'm going to hate myself to write something that supports Shkanon but...

If we think of it that way...
Arc 5 was about the how dunnit.
Arc 6 was about the who dunnit.
And arc 7 would then be about the why dunnit.

It sorta makes sense as a structure to unveil the truth I guess...
However this formula could equally apply to any other culprit.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:10   Link #14795
Judoh
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Once you spoil yourself, you lose the ability to objectively tell whether something is too easy to spot or not. It's not worth arguing with anyone childish enough to not realize this fact.
You must be joking your living, unspoilered, proof that it's easy to spot.

That's your opinion anyway. Let's not bring that topic up again.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:16   Link #14796
Raiza Sunozaki
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Once you spoil yourself, you lose the ability to objectively tell whether something is too easy to spot or not. It's not worth arguing with anyone childish enough to not realize this fact.
So I'm childish. I could've told you that.
But I'm also confident that Episode 6 made the Shkanon theory way too obvious. It's too clumsy a mistake on Ryuukishi's part. If he's subtly thrown in clever hints towards Shkanon throughout Episodes 1-4, it's almost sheer stupidity to go and push it as hard as he did in Episode 6. I trust Ryuukishi enough to believe he knows exactly what he's doing when writing, so I can't see any logic in the sudden change in tactics for writing Shkanon.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:20   Link #14797
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Once you spoil yourself, you lose the ability to objectively tell whether something is too easy to spot or not. It's not worth arguing with anyone childish enough to not realize this fact.
I played Episode 6 pretty early with the onyl thing that might have spoilered me were some of the screenshots I saw which mostly consisted of Jessica killing Kyrie. And it still felt like a big slap right into the face. "Look!! SHKANNONTRICE!!! Lol" And my japanese certainly isn't the best and I'm actually bad at picking up hints. When reading it I instantly started to "rebel" after getting it shoved it down the throught in such a manner almost made me sick. So I think one of my first posts after reading EPisode 6 was that I didn't want to accept Shkannontrice and thought up Kinzo=Kanon.
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:25   Link #14798
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I played Episode 6 pretty early with the onyl thing that might have spoilered me were some of the screenshots I saw which mostly consisted of Jessica killing Kyrie. And it still felt like a big slap right into the face. "Look!! SHKANNONTRICE!!! Lol" And my japanese certainly isn't the best and I'm actually bad at picking up hints. When reading it I instantly started to "rebel" after getting it shoved it down the throught in such a manner almost made me sick. So I think one of my first posts after reading EPisode 6 was that I didn't want to accept Shkannontrice and thought up Kinzo=Kanon.
Did you also think it was obvious Erika would kill the the first twilight victims given the red Battler used listing people who didn't murder them didn't include her?
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Old 2010-07-29, 15:29   Link #14799
UsagiTenpura
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@chronotrig
I sorta want to try to think of a Shkanontrice theory that would actually make me love the character, but I'm uncertain about what your own theories manages to answer to you so far.
The core thing I'd like to know is if you have an explanation for the times people lied on the behalf of Shkanon (either claiming they saw them together or claiming they saw a non existing corpse). I'm not necessarily asking for said explanation as I don't want this to be about arguing about the validity of the theory, I just want to know if you succeeded in explaining those (at least in a satisfactory way to you).
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Old 2010-07-29, 16:23   Link #14800
chronotrig
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I trust Ryuukishi enough to believe he knows exactly what he's doing when writing, so I can't see any logic in the sudden change in tactics for writing Shkanon.
Except he did reveal Kinzo's death outright in EP4 and EP5. If he did have a change in tactics for Shkanon, it was by making it slightly harder to find the answer, not easier. In other words, what if the reader is supposed to guess Shkanon in EP6? Ryuukishi did say that a lot of people did get "the answer" in EP6, but that they hadn't yet tried to put the key in the keyhole of the earlier episodes. If that's so, then the answer is something that most people are supposed to figure out, but which most people haven't figured out how to use yet (i.e. make it work out practically). Once again, that sounds just like Shkanon.
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