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Old 2010-08-01, 10:29   Link #14981
Renall
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Yeah but that's like saying "The key doesn't work in the lock; I must just be using it wrong."

Is that really reasonable? If a key doesn't fit in a lock, it's the wrong key. It might be a key to something, but not to the things we're trying to fit it into.

Now sure, you can argue "Yes, but the locks it does fit are very important." That's fine. It could even be true. But that doesn't cause the other locks we've been staring at for a couple years to cease to exist. Something has to open those, and if the "key" we have isn't fitting, jiggling it around in the lock hoping something will click rises to the level of desperation.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:34   Link #14982
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNemesis View Post
I think that Kanon is Shannon's illusion just like Sakutorou is to Maria and Jessica takes part in the illusion as well
That would actually be a Shkanon variant with the least problems to it - if Battler didn't see Kanon with his own eyes multiple times.

If Kanon just didn't exist, everything would be fine, it's all the evidence that something that looks like Kanon and talks like Kanon is seen by people who aren't privy to Shannon's innermost thoughts that makes it so dubious.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:34   Link #14983
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I don't think it that way.

Remember the epitaph, it looks like it's easier to find the key than the lock. At a certain point Eva was sure she knew what the key was and yet didn't know where to use the key.


You are assuming we already know the lock, I think that's naive.
We have the key, we just need to find the right lock now.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:37   Link #14984
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
It would have been easy to fool anyone with that trick. You know, In EP1, a stake was lying next to Kanon. Plus, I don't really trust Nanjo. They could be working together.
Battler directly observed that the stake was jammed in Jessica's back. I won't accept a theory that she was faking unless someone can explain how he could have been fooled given the structure of the stake, as well as why other people faking their deaths didn't use the same method.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:41   Link #14985
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@ Oliver, Yeah I know I understand but in EP6

Spoiler for EP6:
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:46   Link #14986
AnimeNemesis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Battler directly observed that the stake was jammed in Jessica's back. I won't accept a theory that she was faking unless someone can explain how he could have been fooled given the structure of the stake, as well as why other people faking their deaths didn't use the same method.
As the detective, Battler could have been fooled and thought jessica had a stake in her back.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:47   Link #14987
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNemesis View Post
@ Oliver, Yeah I know I understand but in EP6
when kanon lost the duel, he disappear in front of everyone and people noticed it.
And? The problem is still that if that were the answer, it would mean that on Rokkenjima, imaginary things can be seen with a naked eye by unaffiliated observers.

That would actually be quite amusing if this were the sole actual supernatural kind of thing happening.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:53   Link #14988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNemesis View Post
With all this shannon=kanon stuff, I think people should think about it a little more instead of taking it at face value. Personally even before EP5,

Spoiler for Shannon:
Impossible. That way, the game is missing one piece. Besides, everyone sees Kanon.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:55   Link #14989
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are assuming we already know the lock, I think that's naive.
We have the key, we just need to find the right lock now.
Did you not pay attention to anything I just said? If it fits new locks, that's all fine, but the old locks still exist.

Are we just in denial now? When was the last time we seriously thought about some of the closed room constructions? Do any of our theories do much of anything to explain those? Are we going to just pretend they aren't important and don't matter?

Is it because everybody feels burned by red text tricks? Faith has been shaken, so why bother trying to puzzle it out? If somebody wants to be the first to suggest intellectual dishonesty on ryukishi's part, be my guest. I'm still not totally convinced, but I'm getting there.

Really, his redemption or condemnation is just a few weeks away.
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Old 2010-08-01, 10:55   Link #14990
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNemesis View Post
As the detective, Battler could have been fooled and thought jessica had a stake in her back.
Trick knives work by having the blade collapse into the handle. This is impossible for a stake because the drill head is much larger than the shaft. Having the shaft collapse into the drill head would be possible, but pointless because the drill head wouldn't fit under Jessica's jacket without actually being embedded in her back.

EDIT:
A collapsing stake would theoretically be possible using the structure shown in the anime, but that structure is completely inaccurate. See the description in the game and images in the manga.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:07   Link #14991
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
A collapsing stake would theoretically be possible using the structure shown in the anime, but that structure is completely inaccurate. See the description in the game and images in the manga.
Actually, a collapsing spiral stake is even easier to make than the kind in anime.

Imagine a reel of metallic tape, tightly wound. You can closely simulate it with a reel of 35mm photographic film if you still have such a thing.

Hold the outside, push the middle out. Voila, collapsible, spiral structure. The problem with a collapsible stake, to me, is not how to make a collapsible object of such shape, it's how to hold it on the body.

You can do it for Jessica's back, for this it needs a sharp point that you would stick into a board that would be beneath the clothing. I can't imagine a ready way to do this for Eva's head without lots and lots of makeup.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:11   Link #14992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Trick knives work by having the blade collapse into the handle. This is impossible for a stake because the drill head is much larger than the shaft. Having the shaft collapse into the drill head would be possible, but pointless because the drill head wouldn't fit under Jessica's jacket without actually being embedded in her back.

EDIT:
A collapsing stake would theoretically be possible using the structure shown in the anime, but that structure is completely inaccurate. See the description in the game and images in the manga.
I don't think Jessica has enough gut to kill anyone. She's rather delicate and cannot strain herself.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:27   Link #14993
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
I don't think Jessica has enough gut to kill anyone. She's rather delicate and cannot strain herself.
Bull. She carries around brass knuckles. Her father is Krauss, who seemed to be a pretty decent boxer in his youth. Her only "delicate" point is her asthma, and asthma isn't something that affects you 24/7. MY brother has asthma, and as long as he takes his puffer on the occasion which his asthma is acting up, he can be just as active as anyother person.
And considering how bloodthirsty other Ushiromiya family members can be, I wouldn't put it past any Ushiromiya to kill a person... except Battler.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:29   Link #14994
CainSonozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, a collapsing spiral stake is even easier to make than the kind in anime.

Imagine a reel of metallic tape, tightly wound. You can closely simulate it with a reel of 35mm photographic film if you still have such a thing.

Hold the outside, push the middle out. Voila, collapsible, spiral structure. The problem with a collapsible stake, to me, is not how to make a collapsible object of such shape, it's how to hold it on the body.

You can do it for Jessica's back, for this it needs a sharp point that you would stick into a board that would be beneath the clothing. I can't imagine a ready way to do this for Eva's head without lots and lots of makeup.
How bout Hideyoshis head while he was in the tub? at least as far as what was shown in the anime the showers still going
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:31   Link #14995
Almazluverdis3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Bull. She carries around brass knuckles. Her father is Krauss, who seemed to be a pretty decent boxer in his youth. Her only "delicate" point is her asthma, and asthma isn't something that affects you 24/7. MY brother has asthma, and as long as he takes his puffer on the occasion which his asthma is acting up, he can be just as active as anyother person.
And considering how bloodthirsty other Ushiromiya family members can be, I wouldn't put it past any Ushiromiya to kill a person... except Battler.
Oh. Battler killed.... Uh, no. You're right.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:34   Link #14996
m13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNemesis View Post
Spoiler for Shannon:
I don't think you can compare Kanon and Sakutarou. To me, Kanon is another 'being' inside Shannon, a second personality. That's why everyone is able to communicate with Shannon and Kanon respectively.
Sakutarou is more of an illusion, because he's a stuffed animal which becomes alive in Maria's imagination.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:37   Link #14997
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Are we just in denial now? When was the last time we seriously thought about some of the closed room constructions? Do any of our theories do much of anything to explain those? Are we going to just pretend they aren't important and don't matter?
I think a lot of people, myself included, shifted perspective away from the closed room mysteries because of Battler's line at the beginning of Episode 5, where he mentioned the actual puzzles of the closed rooms weren't important. Maybe this wasn't what Ryuukishi intended for us to do, and his speech about the key and going back checking the locks was meant to correct us.
By Episode 4, we had all the tools and information we needed to solve Umineko. In Episode 5, Ryuukishi gave us the Knox's Decalogue and proof that it was solvable. In Episode 6, he outright revealed the key which solved all the closed rooms.
Well, either I hate Ryuukishi's key, or the more likely case, I'm an idiot and didn't find one. Either way, I don't have a key to solve those closed rooms, and nor do most other people on this forum. So people are still willing to put off going back to look at the closed rooms until they find what they think is the key.
So yes, they did become less important to most people, so that's why most of the theories don't deal with them nowadays.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:42   Link #14998
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Renall: C’mon, take it easy, man, it’s just a story after all.
I perfectly understand where you are coming from: you hate Shkanon with a passion, so do I.

However, although your write-ups against it make for a good reading, I can’t help feeling all your outrage boils down to is just a rejection on an aesthetic level. Attempts to cover this with logical reasoning look progressively less convincing; calling people names over it won’t help, either.

Let’s face it: after Ep6 the prospect of Shkanon being true is, as a certain agent might have put it, “inevitable”. And it’s not because it’s the key to anything, it’s because the author says so. Yep, I’m afraid you have to blindly trust the author on that for now, and logical explanations will follow in due time. Alternatively, you are welcome to uncover and present them yourself. All you are doing now, I’m afraid, is fussing over what may eventually turn out to be a minor plot point, anyway.

As for me, I’d rather prefer a game that makes 20% sense to the one that makes none, and that is what you are asking me to do if I subscribe to your reasoning. Sorry, but I don’t like to spend my time on zero payoff games, and I trust R07 won’t waste his time writing one, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post

Really, his redemption or condemnation is just a few weeks away.
Amen. Meanwhile, let's enjoy the ride.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:42   Link #14999
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m13 View Post
I don't think you can compare Kanon and Sakutarou. To me, Kanon is another 'being' inside Shannon, a second personality. That's why everyone is able to communicate with Shannon and Kanon respectively.
Sakutarou is more of an illusion, because he's a stuffed animal which becomes alive in Maria's imagination.
Sakutaro doesn't just come alive, he gets a humanoid furniture form later on. And what's to say Kanon didn't follow a similar path? Perhaps Shannon had a momento of a younger boy who died young in the orphanage, or for a lighter story just left and never returned. Feeling alone, she projected the human Kanon we know into the momento and created Kanon.
However, this goes against the magical logic of the series, since Shannon, as Beatrice, is an Endless Witch, and not capable of producing a soul from nothing, like Maria can.
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Old 2010-08-01, 11:43   Link #15000
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
How bout Hideyoshis head while he was in the tub? at least as far as what was shown in the anime the showers still going
Even more problematic because of higher demands on the makeup.
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