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Old 2010-08-02, 14:20   Link #15121
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Religious fanatic" is right up there with lunatic and "that guy was just plain evil" in the pantheon of disappointing villain revelations. I'm not saying that you necessarily believe this, but calling the grossly underdeveloped Golden Land Theology concept a religion is something of a disservice to religion. It does not accord a consistent or self-reflective spirituality. And even if it did, and I bought that it was all true, "Beatrice" is clearly acting in deviation from those precepts even if she is not the culprit. She would be doing evil, even to her own beliefs.
Sorry to meta-quote again, but I'd like to add that I also don't see enough evidence from EP1-4 that Shannon actually has this belief. I mean this is supposed to be serious enough to kill. There must be clues which show this characterization, right?

For example, Maria HAS been shown to have this kind of supreme faith in Beatrice's Golden Land so if we were discussing her, I'd believe it. But Shannon hasn't, nor has anyone else.

I think Judoh kind of set the standard for theories now; with that many quotes from the game, there's no doubt about George's characterization. Where are the ones for Shannon?

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Actually, I halfway agree with LaplaceNoMa on this point (talking about his post before his last one), though not for the same reasons. There is plenty of evidence that someone off the island at least had knowledge of the crimes beforehand, and took steps to take advantage of that.

For example, it seems likely that Eva was supposed to die on the island (since it happens in most games). There is only one group that would have directly benefited by Eva's death: the Sumadera family (or possibly just Kasumi). If Eva had died, then Ange would have gone to the Sumadera family, and they would have gotten all of the Ushiromiya family wealth without having to split it with Okonogi and Ange. Since Ange would be under their control, she'd be effectively imprisoned or dead from the get-go.
I don't see that people benefiting from the explosion is actual evidence of prior knowledge though. If the Ushiromiya died in an accident, then the Sumadera family would STILL benefit through controlling Ange. Maybe you meant to say that the idea Ange was left behind was planned out beforehand and not an accident? Unfortunately we don't have very many clues that there were plans to this regard. We kinda needed it by the end of EP4...


As for the original idea, I wanted to say that the idea that someone is manipulating events on the island from the outside, besides violating Knox rules about the culprit not being introduced at the beginning, also violates the idea that there needs to be clues presented. There needs to be something shown from EP1-4 that shows an outside influence.

As for the above quote, I'm not against the idea that someone else knew of such plans. After all, if we think Krauss set up the bomb, he couldn't have done it by himself. I don't see any clues to say that he was a demolitions expert or anything. So he must have had some outside help. Especially if the geological event was triggered, the explosives should be placed underground... And at the very least, even if he stumbled upon the bomb instead then he still had the island surveyed. The surveyors must have found it for him...
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Old 2010-08-02, 14:30   Link #15122
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Religious fanatic" is right up there with lunatic and "that guy was just plain evil" in the pantheon of disappointing villain revelations. I'm not saying that you necessarily believe this, but calling the grossly underdeveloped Golden Land Theology concept a religion is something of a disservice to religion. It does not accord a consistent or self-reflective spirituality. And even if it did, and I bought that it was all true, "Beatrice" is clearly acting in deviation from those precepts even if she is not the culprit. She would be doing evil, even to her own beliefs.

And maybe she is, but... if you have to invent a religion for your prime mover, then invent their apostasy... you might be overthinking it.
Indeed, it isn't really a religion at all. It's a philosophy about the nature of truth, and it only carries one assumption: perception is reality. Personally, I strongly disagree with this assumption on many levels, but you have to admit that it is a simple one, and one that an impressionable kid could easily fall for. Almost all the rest of Beatrice's behavior pattern follows this one simple rule.

In other words, by this reasoning, all Christians who are considered good at the time of their death do go the heaven when their loved ones believe that they do. And all people who are despised and hated truly do fall into hell, as long as people believe that they do. The Golden Land is just another thing created for people to believe in, with her logic.

Quote:
Sorry to meta-quote again, but I'd like to add that I also don't see enough evidence from EP1-4 that Shannon actually has this belief. I mean this is supposed to be serious enough to kill. There must be clues which show this characterization, right?
In EP4, Shannon talks about the Golden Land, and how it isn't a place within this world, but all of your wishes are granted there. Obviously, Shkanon isn't going to talk about these beliefs publicly, since that would probably blow her cover. As for Beatrice's truth itself, that's part of the puzzle of the game.
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Old 2010-08-02, 14:32   Link #15123
Durante
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem is that the religious beliefs you have concocted are not particularly rational. Thus, they don't entirely stand on the same level as a "real-life" religion
This part made me laugh out loud.

Sorry, carry on.
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Old 2010-08-02, 14:38   Link #15124
Misuzu
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Personally, I can't believe that Battler would've reacted the way he did when he reached the truth if the truth was that Shannontrice had killed his family so that they could be happy together in heaven. I could see him being able to forgive her for it eventually, but it doesn't make sense for him to be apologetic in the way that he was.

I think his reaction is very important, especially since Ange brought it up again in Chapter 6. To me, it all but confirms that whoever Beatrice is on the game board, she's not the main culprit.
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Old 2010-08-02, 14:42   Link #15125
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Indeed, it isn't really a religion at all. It's a philosophy about the nature of truth, and it only carries one assumption: perception is reality. Personally, I strongly disagree with this assumption on many levels, but you have to admit that it is a simple one, and one that an impressionable kid could easily fall for. Almost all the rest of Beatrice's behavior pattern follows this one simple rule.

In other words, by this reasoning, all Christians who are considered good at the time of their death do go the heaven when their loved ones believe that they do. And all people who are despised and hated truly do fall into hell, as long as people believe that they do. The Golden Land is just another thing created for people to believe in, with her logic.
But... that... is a religion?

I'm also pretty sure that perception not only isn't reality to Beatrice (at least Meta-Beatrice), and in fact I believe that notion is provably false. Beatrice has first principles, and they are not subject to interpretation. Perception changing understanding is clearly important to her presentation, but it does not and cannot form the core of her value system, lest her entire endeavor be an incoherent sham.

It's a bit hard for me to elaborate right now, but essentially, consider whether there would really be any point to making Battler remember his sin to a person whose fundamental worldview is that perception constructs truth. There is not. None whatsoever. It would be equally effective, and indeed far more convenient, to simply make Battler believe he had sinned. If we accept that Battler really sinned and that his sin had some real value to it, it can only resonate philosophically with a person who has a non-fluid value system. The very notion of a "sin" is intrinsic to a system of moral ethics. The only way one can really "sin" against an adaptive ethical system is to effectively betray the concept of adaptation itself.

An example would be a hedonistic system which says "do whatever brings you pleasure." The only real "sin" there would be doing that which would not bring pleasure even when the option to do something pleasurable was available. If "perception is reality," really the only existent sin is "choose to ignore what you perceive." There is no evidence that Battler did this, and even if he did, if Beatrice believes this she's a hypocrite of the highest order.
Quote:
In EP4, Shannon talks about the Golden Land, and how it isn't a place within this world, but all of your wishes are granted there. Obviously, Shkanon isn't going to talk about these beliefs publicly, since that would probably blow her cover. As for Beatrice's truth itself, that's part of the puzzle of the game.
Boy, that sure is convenient. The characterization is there, really, but they just can't talk about it or ever indicate they have it!
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Originally Posted by Durante View Post
This part made me laugh out loud.

Sorry, carry on.
I don't mean to backseat moderate, but that's not terribly appropriate. I am, if nothing else, giving the notion the benefit of the doubt, as it is my intention to take any contention of a religious motive for a culprit as seriously as any other motive. And I do not personally think it is fair or reasonable to believe that a person with a religious belief cannot be rational.
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Old 2010-08-02, 15:03   Link #15126
Durante
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't mean to backseat moderate, but that's not terribly appropriate. I am, if nothing else, giving the notion the benefit of the doubt, as it is my intention to take any contention of a religious motive for a culprit as seriously as any other motive. And I do not personally think it is fair or reasonable to believe that a person with a religious belief cannot be rational.
I always thought of rational behavior as guiding one's actions by reasoning on gathered observations. Thus, a religious person may well act rational most of the time -- or even all the time -- but religious belief in and of itself can never be rational.

In any case, this is mostly off-topic except that it tangentially touches on this particular theory, and on top of that it may be an emotional issue for some, so I'll drop it.
Concerning the actual topic of discussion I agree with Misuzu that, from all we know of Battler's character, it seems unlikely that he would not just forgive but beg for forgiveness himself in the murdering "religious" shannontrice scenario.
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Old 2010-08-02, 15:09   Link #15127
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Durante View Post
I always thought of rational behavior as guiding one's actions by reasoning on gathered observations. Thus, a religious person may well act rational most of the time -- or even all the time -- but religious belief in and of itself can never be rational.
Quote:
The taller priest nodded his bowed head and said:

“Ah, yes, these modern infidels appeal to their reason; but who can look at those millions of worlds and not feel that
there may well be wonderful universes above us where reason is utterly unreasonable?”

“No,” said the other priest; “reason is always reasonable, even in the last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I
know that people charge the Church with lowering reason, but it is just the other way. Alone on earth, the Church makes
reason really supreme. Alone on earth, the Church affirms that God himself is bound by reason.”

The other priest raised his austere face to the spangled sky and said:

“Yet who knows if in that infinite universe — ?”

“Only infinite physically,” said the little priest, turning sharply in his seat, “not infinite in the sense of escaping
from the laws of truth.”
G. K. Chesterton, "The Blue Cross".
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Old 2010-08-02, 15:18   Link #15128
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In EP4, Shannon talks about the Golden Land, and how it isn't a place within this world, but all of your wishes are granted there. Obviously, Shkanon isn't going to talk about these beliefs publicly, since that would probably blow her cover. As for Beatrice's truth itself, that's part of the puzzle of the game.
This isn't enough to kill, however. Compare this characterization with Maria, who doesn't seem to care that people, even her own mother, is dead. If Shannon aspires to the Golden Land and Beatrice's blessing, but doesn't leak the clues that show that she can murder from this belief.. then.. we're back at the lack of clues stage.

It's the same with the siblings for example. All of them desperately need money but it's a stretch to show that they can commit murder because of it.

You can bypass the motive if you can show opportunity however. If person X was the only one with the opportunity to do Y... then their motive doesn't matter in showing that they can be responsible...

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I always thought of rational behavior as guiding one's actions by reasoning on gathered observations. Thus, a religious person may well act rational most of the time -- or even all the time -- but religious belief in and of itself can never be rational.
Putting our own world views into the mystery will just muddle up the theories. At the end of the day, it just matters what Ryukishi thinks. I think he's good enough of a writer to avoid the subject entirely, as it isn't exactly relevant. Especially not in a murder mystery.
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Old 2010-08-02, 15:37   Link #15129
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Indeed, it isn't really a religion at all. It's a philosophy about the nature of truth, and it only carries one assumption: perception is reality.
A belief about what makes something true is not even really a motive. It might explain your character a little bit, but there is going to have to be something besides that to be complete.

What makes something "true" is a large subject that goes back all the way to the Greek philosopher Plato. And many religions beleive in some kind of concept of truth, but it's usually a misunderstanding or a strict following of the lessons that leads to a motive for crime not a philosophy about truth. If I'm to wonder anything though it'd be where this person learned this stuff. There aren't many indications of where, but I think It'd be fairly easy to learn this from an encyclopedia.

I think the theory you might be following is consensus theory

If I were to chose rather than a religion I'd call it a cult. Since the idol Beatrice was once a human person.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-02 at 16:04.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:01   Link #15130
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Anyone can gain knowledge through exposure to Kinzo's extensive library. For his one-winged servants it wouldn't even be all that hard. A broader question would be where George gets his occult knowledge, which is presumably not something he's going to have access to that often on Rokkenjima. So he either has a source, or an outside hobby.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:12   Link #15131
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I think an occult hobby is more likely with the hints I have. If he has a source it'd be easier to just assume he has one instead of creating a completely new character for explaining that or explaining it with someone similar to Okonogi or a college professor like the Witch Hunt Guy. There's only so many connections you can make with what we have without making it silly.

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Old 2010-08-02, 16:28   Link #15132
UsagiTenpura
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Crazy idea I had, about the bomb.

During WW2 japan also had projects of making Nukes. However none of these projects really got anywhere. Is it possible that a "mostly failed" nuke prototype exists on Rokkenjima and it's what blows up?

It would heavily change the landscape, force to shut down the island completely, and the governement woudn't have much choice but to cover it up as an accident.

Not saying I think that theory is good, just a thought rather that I can't dismiss yet...
I know Eva survived in arc 3, but a really failed incomplete prototype might not completely blow up 2 kilometers away.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:31   Link #15133
Oliver
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
During WW2 japan also had projects of making Nukes. However none of these projects really got anywhere. Is it possible that a "mostly failed" nuke prototype exists on Rokkenjima and it's what blows up?
I've researched this before.

It makes fictional sense, quite a lot of it, but there is no indication whatsoever that Japan was ever close to a nuclear device test. The best we can hope for is an experimental reactor that actually transmuted lead shielding into gold by accident.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:33   Link #15134
Renall
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I think an occult hobby is more likely with the hints I have. If he has a source it'd be easier to just assume he has one instead of creating a completely new character for explaining that or explaining it with someone similar to Okonogi or a college professor like the Witch Hunt Guy. There's only so many connections you can make with what we have without making it silly.
Well, with a Shannontrice concept, one would then assume his "outside source" to be Shannon, so no entities need multiplication.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:57   Link #15135
UsagiTenpura
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The best we can hope for is an experimental reactor that actually transmuted lead shielding into gold by accident.
Well I'd rather not suggest that, tho a reactor does seem to work better then a real bomb actually.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:58   Link #15136
Judoh
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Well, with a Shannontrice concept, one would then assume his "outside source" to be Shannon, so no entities need multiplication.
Well yeah it's really easy to assume he could learn a lot of this with Shannontrice.

I think it's implied with his similarities to Ange and Maria though, being introverted and bullied , that he might be able to research a lot of this stuff on his own as a hobby because of a similar life experience. Especially since he's the type that gets good grades, which is the difference between him and them.

Shannon and Maria might explain why he doesn't know about the magic circles and they could be accomplices in that. But I sort of want to beleive that he's playing dumb and that he could go the extra mile and the be the source for those things in Maria's notebooks in the first place. Since we have little explanation for that other than maybe borrowing some of Kinzo's books.

It's still good to have the Shannontrice explanation though because most of the occult knowledge he has seems to be related to Christianity in some ways.
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Old 2010-08-02, 17:22   Link #15137
chronotrig
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But... that... is a religion?

I'm also pretty sure that perception not only isn't reality to Beatrice (at least Meta-Beatrice), and in fact I believe that notion is provably false. Beatrice has first principles, and they are not subject to interpretation. Perception changing understanding is clearly important to her presentation, but it does not and cannot form the core of her value system, lest her entire endeavor be an incoherent sham.
First off, I'm not at all sure that meta-Beatrice believes in this system. She seems to be her own entity, and she's already seen the result of piece-Beatrice's actions. As I've said, if anything, she's fighting to bring a stop to Shkanon's actions.

Also, by this theory, piece-Beatrice is actually a lie created by Shkanon. The whole personality was constructed to serve a purpose for her. Shkanon may treasure her like an old, familiar stuffed animal, but she knows that Beatrice doesn't exist in the real world. So, it makes sense for the furniture Beatrice to believe in magic directly, whereas the human only sees it as a human truth (something that individuals accept as the truth).
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-08-02 at 17:34.
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Old 2010-08-02, 17:24   Link #15138
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Kinzo pulled Beatrices hair and cuffed her to a bed.
Kinzo slamed Beatrice head in bead.

Shannon is Beatrice.

Kinzo has raped Shannon.
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Old 2010-08-02, 17:45   Link #15139
blitz1/2
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Kinzo pulled Beatrices hair and cuffed her to a bed.
Kinzo slamed Beatrice head in bead.

Shannon is Beatrice.

Kinzo has raped Shannon.
lol, at first I thought it was a poem.
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Old 2010-08-02, 18:25   Link #15140
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I don't even like ryhmes.
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