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Old 2010-08-03, 07:08   Link #15161
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
Could it all be a hint about some 'bad bullets'? I've ran into this though only after your analogy with these magic scenes showing 'jammed weapons', it could be something like 'the bullets are bad, need to reload them'.

That sounds quite crazy though.
I don't think it's crazy. It seems pretty likely that the rifles are initially loaded with blanks, and the culprit grabbing one of the guns with blanks and then realizing after they try and shoot that they've grabbed one of the blanks-loaded rifles and have to reload them.
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Old 2010-08-03, 08:34   Link #15162
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If we believe Kanon's internal narration in ep6, Kinzo's guns are functional, or at least some of his guns are functional, and there's probably some real ammunition. Whether blanks exist and the guns are to be used as props in the epitaph murder storyline, or whether they're swapped out for real bullets, or whether they're always real bullets, would be hard to say.

It's possible that in ep1's finale Battler just isn't shooting at a person. It's pretty dark... if I were Beatrice, I'd probably put a vaguely large object in the shadows to draw his attention in case he gets trigger happy.

EDIT: As for why Natsuhi's gun didn't fire... maybe it was in the script. Or maybe she decided she couldn't shoot. Her gun need not be broken to explain why she didn't shoot.
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Old 2010-08-03, 08:48   Link #15163
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If we believe Kanon's internal narration in ep6, Kinzo's guns are functional, or at least some of his guns are functional, and there's probably some real ammunition. Whether blanks exist and the guns are to be used as props in the epitaph murder storyline, or whether they're swapped out for real bullets, or whether they're always real bullets, would be hard to say.

It's possible that in ep1's finale Battler just isn't shooting at a person. It's pretty dark... if I were Beatrice, I'd probably put a vaguely large object in the shadows to draw his attention in case he gets trigger happy.

EDIT: As for why Natsuhi's gun didn't fire... maybe it was in the script. Or maybe she decided she couldn't shoot. Her gun need not be broken to explain why she didn't shoot.
But Battler's narration clearly states that there's the smell of powder from her gun.
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Old 2010-08-03, 08:50   Link #15164
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But Battler's narration clearly states that there's the smell of powder from her gun.
Maybe they got swapped. To what end, I couldn't tell you.
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Old 2010-08-03, 09:18   Link #15165
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Spoiler for various parts of Episode 4:
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Old 2010-08-03, 10:30   Link #15166
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There's a lot that can be done to jam a rifle too, and I imagine that if you tried to fire a rifle that was jammed, you'd get the same scent of gunpowder. I'm not a guns expert by any means, though.

It's possible that the culprit took multiple precautions to render the guns unusable to anyone who didn't realize what had been done. I'm sure it'd be very easy for anyone with access to Kinzo's study to take the time to do this, and I can see why a mastermind would want all of the others on the island to have the sense of false security that the guns would give them.
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Old 2010-08-03, 10:40   Link #15167
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Wait a second, what about Ep3 and Eva vs Jessica? The gun. It misfired. Jessica got blinded.
Could it be the exactly same gun?
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Old 2010-08-03, 11:04   Link #15168
Raiza Sunozaki
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Wait a second, what about Ep3 and Eva vs Jessica? The gun. It misfired. Jessica got blinded.
Could it be the exactly same gun?
I think the count of working guns has never hit above four (excluding magic pistols and rabbit guns). So while it's possible, it's only a 25% chance of being right. Not something Ryuukishi would bother to make that important.

Last edited by Raiza Sunozaki; 2010-08-03 at 11:15.
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Old 2010-08-03, 11:13   Link #15169
Misuzu
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You can definitely be blinded by a gun with blanks, so Jessica being blinded by the gun Eva had doesn't mean that the gun had to contain real bullets. A gun with blanks can even kill if it's fired at a close enough range, which would be a good reason to jam guns as an added precaution.

I think it's interesting that the Siestas don't show up until Chapter 3, when the plans of the culprit(s) have seemingly gone off the wire. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were only in the meta-world and not in the magical scenes on the gameboard in Chapters 5 and 6, right? That could be a clue.
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Old 2010-08-03, 11:55   Link #15170
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If we believe Kanon's internal narration in ep6, Kinzo's guns are functional, or at least some of his guns are functional, and there's probably some real ammunition. Whether blanks exist and the guns are to be used as props in the epitaph murder storyline, or whether they're swapped out for real bullets, or whether they're always real bullets, would be hard to say.

It's possible that in ep1's finale Battler just isn't shooting at a person. It's pretty dark... if I were Beatrice, I'd probably put a vaguely large object in the shadows to draw his attention in case he gets trigger happy.

EDIT: As for why Natsuhi's gun didn't fire... maybe it was in the script. Or maybe she decided she couldn't shoot. Her gun need not be broken to explain why she didn't shoot.
There is another very important reason I believe the guns are loaded with blanks.
That's because for someone who wants to create the illusion of an all powerful witch, guns loaded with blanks can be used quite effectively.

If people aren't aware that the bullets are blank they can hardly notice. As Misuzu said blank bullets contain the same amount of gun powder of any regular bullet, they just lack the pellet. They will make the same sound and will produce the same smell. A human eye cannot see the pellet, so they won't notice it's missing.

This way you can easily create the illusion of magic, you let people fire at you and you just smile telling them that it's useless to fire to a witch.

Clearly, whether you are a real assassin or the mastermind of a big charade you definitely don't want people to run around with real guns!

We are talking about someone who had prepared this since a long time, he took care about removing any kind of communication system with the outside how could he possibly miss the guns? Hell he even left them near the corpses once.

This is even more true in case of the fake murder scenario. There is a way too high chance that someone would panic and kill someone for real.
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Old 2010-08-03, 12:50   Link #15171
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The question is, did the killer leave him or herself the option to switch to real bullets, or does he/she know one of the guns is loaded with real bullets and favors that particular one? When does the blank substitution get made? In ep3 the adults grab the guns and boxes of ammo, and they don't appear to notice that the ammo is blank (if it is) or that the guns were initially loaded with blanks (if they were) or that one of the guns works and the others don't.

That makes it seem like the person doing it couldn't get to the guns in time in ep3, or simply didn't choose to use them for anything.
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Old 2010-08-03, 13:03   Link #15172
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It is possible that the bullets were forged to resemble the real thing, plus nobody there is supposed to know how guns and bullets are made with maybe the exception of Hideyoshi.

The blank substitution logically should have happened long time before the start of the game. The fake murder plan if well planned should have taken care of those guns. It is also quite possible that live ammunitions never existed to begin with.

If you want a gun for practical use you don't get a relic from the western era.
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Old 2010-08-03, 13:14   Link #15173
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I agree with that - maybe seista sisters represent weapons that are not Kinzo's guns. The killer may have smuggled some nice weapons onto the island beforehand. The magical jamming scenes - maybe the guns and ammo were left outside so they got wet during the typhoon and had to be unjammed.
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Old 2010-08-03, 13:19   Link #15174
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is possible that the bullets were forged to resemble the real thing, plus nobody there is supposed to know how guns and bullets are made with maybe the exception of Hideyoshi.

The blank substitution logically should have happened long time before the start of the game. The fake murder plan if well planned should have taken care of those guns. It is also quite possible that live ammunitions never existed to begin with.
Well, in ep3 Hideyoshi test-fires at least one of the guns to clear it. Blanks are a little different from the real thing, so whether he'd notice or not is an open question.
Quote:
If you want a gun for practical use you don't get a relic from the western era.
I agree, which is why I think there's still a gun unaccounted for, possibly a handgun.
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Old 2010-08-03, 13:36   Link #15175
Raiza Sunozaki
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Well, in ep3 Hideyoshi test-fires at least one of the guns to clear it. Blanks are a little different from the real thing, so whether he'd notice or not is an open question.I agree, which is why I think there's still a gun unaccounted for, possibly a handgun.
But Kanon remembers Kinzo letting him fire guns when he was in Nice Old Man Mode. Which means the guns were operational at least... two years ago, was it? And if Kinzo used them on a regular basis, they could've been operational at least a year ago. And it doesn't matter how old a gun is. If it's in workable condition and loaded, it can still kill someone quite nicely.
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Old 2010-08-03, 18:15   Link #15176
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But Kanon remembers Kinzo letting him fire guns when he was in Nice Old Man Mode. Which means the guns were operational at least... two years ago, was it? And if Kinzo used them on a regular basis, they could've been operational at least a year ago. And it doesn't matter how old a gun is. If it's in workable condition and loaded, it can still kill someone quite nicely.
Question is, what were they doing playing with guns? I hope they didn't shoot random bunnies on the island

If we're placing Reality and Magic Realism (I forgot the 'Umineko term'), if Kinzo had 'created' Shannon, Kanon, and Genji, this gives them their Furniture status and Golden crest. But in reality, they were adopted or friends, right? Does that mean we should omit all things regarding what Kanon says about being 'furniture' or do they really believe that and consider it a magical scene?
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Old 2010-08-03, 18:22   Link #15177
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Well in the manga I think Kanon says he owes a debt to Kinzo similar to how Genji does. And in episode 6 he says he doesn't like to have debts or something similar.
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Old 2010-08-03, 18:38   Link #15178
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Well in the manga I think Kanon says he owes a debt to Kinzo similar to how Genji does. And in episode 6 he says he doesn't like to have debts or something similar.
I see. Well, if I remember correctly, a servant or furniture can work 3-years and have enough to start their own lives.

Kanon had a reason to keep working (as he was adopted), but what was Shannon's again? She worked a bit longer if I recall. Genji's was being indebted to Kinzo, but I think decades is quite.... long for a debt.
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Old 2010-08-03, 18:43   Link #15179
Raiza Sunozaki
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Well in the manga I think Kanon says he owes a debt to Kinzo similar to how Genji does. And in episode 6 he says he doesn't like to have debts or something similar.
Randomly, couldn't Kinzo have done something to save their lives? I think Genji says something about owing Kinzo his life, and that would certainly be a plausible reason for the Winged Servants to show such respect for the old man. We also know that Kinzo is actually quite a nice guy when he's not forced to keep up appearances, so I don;t put it past him, saving the lives of some random people. Then they serve him a couple years (well, in Genji's case, his whole life) to repay his kindness.
As well, if Kinzo saved their lives, it would feel like Kinzo would've given them their current life, in other words, gave birth to their new selves.
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Old 2010-08-03, 20:36   Link #15180
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Kanon had a reason to keep working (as he was adopted), but what was Shannon's again? She worked a bit longer if I recall. Genji's was being indebted to Kinzo, but I think decades is quite.... long for a debt.
All we really know is that if we follow the references in the game Shannon has been working for the Ushiromiya family for about 10 years. So if her age is right she started working there when she was 6 years old (there's that number again). Something is fishy about that, but nothing further has been said about it at this point.
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