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Old 2010-08-03, 23:38   Link #15201
Raiza Sunozaki
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And as Lambda says in Episode 5: "All new truths overshadow the old ones." Or something along those lines.
Still, regardless of the hints, it's not introduced until Episode 6, so Judoh is right on that point. Or a better word is confirmed, I guess. But I digress.
On a side note, it seems almost as if he's saying this with the Vs. Letter:
"Hey guys, I might've made some logical fallacies in some of the previous Episodes, but it's alright, since I can correct them in later Episodes. Just thought I'd give you a heads up."
-Ryuu 07-
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:08   Link #15202
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm mostly asking for hints for that winchester scenario you were talking about not the idea of the fiction thing. For example blanks have never been mentioned in any game before.
At first Eva-Beato was told she should be scared of guns, she summons siestas, and then she's basically gun-proof. That can certainly be taken as a hint that the game was rewritten at that exact point so that the guns were loaded with blanks. Alternatively that they were jammed or something along those lines.

Edit: Thinking generally speaking the Siestas' absurd powers can really be taken as the witch's side sorta cheating/abusing the rules. Possibly why Beato never uses it herself ... at least directly... I mean just the idea that the Siestas never miss. That's pretty easy to do if you write it so you hit every time.
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:26   Link #15203
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They don't miss, but their attacks can be blocked (by Shannon's barrier, Battler's magic resistance).
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:29   Link #15204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
At first Eva-Beato was told she should be scared of guns, she summons siestas, and then she's basically gun-proof. That can certainly be taken as a hint that the game was rewritten at that exact point so that the guns were loaded with blanks. Alternatively that they were jammed or something along those lines.

Edit: Thinking generally speaking the Siestas' absurd powers can really be taken as the witch's side sorta cheating/abusing the rules. Possibly why Beato never uses it herself ... at least directly... I mean just the idea that the Siestas never miss. That's pretty easy to do if you write it so you hit every time.
Wow, I think you're totally right on this. It does explain a lot, and Evatrice does perfectly fit the part of an unfair player.
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:39   Link #15205
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wow, I think you're totally right on this. It does explain a lot, and Evatrice does perfectly fit the part of an unfair player.
And who else uses the Siestas (in quite an abundance, might I add)? Erika. The dictionary definition of someone who doesn't give a damn for the fairness of a game.
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:41   Link #15206
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
They don't miss, but their attacks can be blocked (by Shannon's barrier, Battler's magic resistance).
That simply suggest that in the case of magic battle more then one person are allowed to write. The battle between Virgilia and Beatrice in arc 3's FT really feels like that. It's like they each have a turn in which they write their attack/reply to the other. However since these must still follow the specified rules of the magic attacks per say, someone like Virgilia has a lot more mythical knowledge and thus generally the upper hand.

However, Beatrice can use endless magic, rewrite the story before. That's exactly what she did in that battle. After Virgilia made a "winning" move, Beato did her "desperate move" in which she rewrote the past so she had won already at the start.

Actually I think this is the clearest example we've had all along of how things works.

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Old 2010-08-04, 00:41   Link #15207
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But also Kinzo-as-Goldsmith. And they even get an upgrade there. And 00 appears. So... what's with that?
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:50   Link #15208
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I guess it just matters to find "who's furniture is Goldsmith".
As for that, I guess there's plenty of possibilities. The likeliest one being Beato I think. For most of arc 4 the main question is "why such drastic measures were used by Beato" and my guess is because Kinzo's death was found out by everyone except the cousins, that so before the FT.
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Old 2010-08-04, 00:56   Link #15209
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Well why can't Ronove or the stakes make you gun proof? That was the reason they were summoned there and we were shown at least one of them doing something like that. The Siesta were just sort of..." higher level" than them for some reason.

Quote:
But also Kinzo-as-Goldsmith. And they even get an upgrade there. And 00 appears. So... what's with that?
Literary consistency. I heard a rumor that Siesta 556 is going to have some importance in episode 7. And we usually get at least 3 new characters to appear per episode. No proof though.
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:06   Link #15210
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Spoiler for Umineko Motion Graphic 7:


I and everyone were looking at this picture and asking why Rosa was holding Beatrice? And then everyone realized that it was Older-Sis Beatrice.

Which kinda brings forth the question... could Rosa have been or is a 'Beatrice'?

I know she's one of the candidates for dressing up as Beatrice, at least when she's back on the island. But I was wondering what the plausibility is of her having 'succeeded' Beatrice's position in 1967 after Beatrice-2 died?

And now, after she left, it's fallen to Shannon or Jessica?


... and I'm not sure how this helps us, exactly... yet.
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:19   Link #15211
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Not just Rosa, but Kyrie also. They might know the solution to the epitaph before hand. That's a creeping suspicion I've had ever since I first read episode 3.
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:21   Link #15212
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Maybe it's just the people that make the UMG who believe Rosa is Beatrice or something and that idea was reflected on that pic.

However since they are not affiliated with 07Expansion, who cares?
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:31   Link #15213
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Maybe it's just the people that make the UMG who believe Rosa is Beatrice or something and that idea was reflected on that pic.
It's not just from that, but from other sources after there was an Older-Sis Beatrice. It just suddenly looks like Rosa sometimes... 8)

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Not just Rosa, but Kyrie also. They might know the solution to the epitaph before hand. That's a creeping suspicion I've had ever since I first read episode 3.
In EP3, you mean, like you get the feeling that Rosa didn't 'just' solve the Epitaph nearly at the same time as Eva... she had solved it long ago and was just pretending to be slightly behind Eva?

That was my feeling there... as if she knew Eva was heading towards the gold anyways...
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:32   Link #15214
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@ Judoh
The thing is that beside the Siestas and Sakutarou, everything else has a background (including Beatrice herself) that wasn't created by the gamemaster. They're taken mostly from the Divine Comedy but the general idea is that they're not limited to any specific culture (after all, Beato fears eastern holy objects as well for instance).
However there's Maria. The witch of orrigins who can create 1. 1 is weak, but Maria's 1 are free of restrictions. Maria created Sakutarou but not his current shape, and likely not his power of preventing Maria and himself from being targets. Beatrice can turn 1 into 100, but with Maria's furniture, she can create any 100 she wants because she's not limited by the cultural ideas behind various other furnitures.
As thus results unfair powers such as Siestas and Sakutarou.

At least, this is my understanding of it.

@ Kylon
I guess it's possible. Rosa was like 12-14 at the time? Shannon began to work on Rokkenjima 9 years after, so it's possible Shannon's arrival and Rosa's departure happened at similar time.
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:49   Link #15215
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I guess it's possible. Rosa was like 12-14 at the time? Shannon began to work on Rokkenjima 9 years after, so it's possible Shannon's arrival and Rosa's departure happened at similar time.
Ok.. maybe it's like this:

Beatrice was said to be the master of the island, or at least one of the masters. In addition, Beatrice was shown to be a title inherited from one woman to another.

How about... that there must be a line of Beatrices? We're thinking that Shannon must be the current 'Beatrice.' And she has this obligation to stay and 'be' Beatrice. However, Jessica would be the next candidate if Shannon were to leave and marry George.

... and.. this means Kanon can't marry Jessica somehow? Hmmmm... maybe Beatrice's aren't allowed to marry or something...

Hmm.. needs more work.
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:41   Link #15216
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Spoiler for Umineko Motion Graphic 7:


I and everyone were looking at this picture and asking why Rosa was holding Beatrice? And then everyone realized that it was Older-Sis Beatrice.

Which kinda brings forth the question... could Rosa have been or is a 'Beatrice'?

I know she's one of the candidates for dressing up as Beatrice, at least when she's back on the island. But I was wondering what the plausibility is of her having 'succeeded' Beatrice's position in 1967 after Beatrice-2 died?

And now, after she left, it's fallen to Shannon or Jessica?


... and I'm not sure how this helps us, exactly... yet.
Eh I don't think so. It's just the way the artist drew her that made us think it was Rosa for a split second. If she made the hair a bit more yellowish in color then we wouldn't have even thought it was Rosa.
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:13   Link #15217
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's hard to imagine how she couldn't exist.

In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
I feel the need to point out people take this phrase too much for granted. All it clearly states is "In 1967, in a mansion that was at some time considered hidden by someone or another, a person who at some time was, is, or will be referred to as Beatrice-sama was a human being, who may or may not be alive".

It's important to remember every single statement of red is only true in the phrasing it's presented in, and only out of context. Context has no bearing on the meaning of the red truth unless that context is also in red or used as a qualifier for that specific red statement("From now on I will use Kinzo to refer to the living Kinzo" is a good example of such a qualifier).

If Shkanontrice is true then all it means is that at some point during the year 1967 Shannon visited Kuwadorian. Possibly. For an unstated period of time which may not have been for longer than five minutes.
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:23   Link #15218
Marion
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Originally Posted by Qaenyin View Post
If Shkanontrice is true then all it means is that at some point during the year 1967 Shannon visited Kuwadorian. Possibly. For an unstated period of time which may not have been for longer than five minutes.
Shannon is 16. Is this is true then she isn't even alive in 1967. Second, Ronove was the one who told us this red. If he's there to help Battler, like it was suggested in EP 5 and 6, then why twist around the red when Beatrice isn't even around?
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:32   Link #15219
Qaenyin
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Shannon is 16. Is this is true then she isn't even alive in 1967. Second, Ronove was the one who told us this red. If he's there to help Battler, like it was suggested in EP 5 and 6, then why twist around the red when Beatrice isn't even around?
I was using Shkanontrice as an example. If anything the fact that Shannon is only 16 lends itself to suggest that Shkanon may be true, but Shkanontrice is not. "19 years ago is when the ruler of this island was born" remember? A lot of information, in my opinion, suggests that whomever actually IS Beatrice, was born in 1967. The fact that "Beatrice-sama existed in 1967 in (probably Kuwadorian)" means it's likely that whomever is Beatrice was born there in that year.
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:48   Link #15220
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Zepar and Furfur said "ruler of this world" not ruler of this island. And "world" obviously refers to the meta world. They actually say "true ruler" to make it a sure thing that it's not Erika.
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