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Old 2010-08-06, 03:04   Link #15381
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I thought the the thing Battler said in his narration in episode 4 about Maria counting each 'hi' while she's laughing for the people who die was a pretty interesting hint. Because if you count them you actually do come up with the exact number of victims that are supposed to be dead at the time in that episode.
Okay, that's really, really creepy.
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Old 2010-08-06, 03:09   Link #15382
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What do you expect from the child who interprets Rosa's insides as black filth?
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Old 2010-08-06, 05:37   Link #15383
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
And an important Question:
Does the VN state HOW Batter, Maria und Jessica dies in the first turn?

And how does this particular VN work? Is it just reading or reading with choices?
No, the VN does not state how they died in the first arc. It is revealed later (way later) that it's
Spoiler for EP6, several arcs AFTER the anime ends:


This VN is just reading. So pull up a chair, get a cup of black tea, and sit back to enjoy the show.

The VN will feel slower paced than the anime. The first arc of the anime is stretched out into a 5-10 hour read. On the upside, there are a lot more clues, and it doesn't feel rushed. If you're on the fence, I recommend trying the first arc for free. It's linked to on the Witch Hunt website.

Last edited by Pika_power; 2010-08-06 at 05:54.
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Old 2010-08-06, 07:08   Link #15384
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Quote:
きひひひひひひひひひひひひひ
Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihi.
Just to point out how anal is witch hunt about this translation. They actually counted each "hi".
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Old 2010-08-06, 07:23   Link #15385
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I think it could be that Beatrice fits her story around the number of laughs Maria does. Or that she's been forewarned about whatever crazed rampage is going on in episode 4.

I think we should bear in mind that the extremely rushed ritual in ep4 is probably caused by what Kyrie said... so... why would that be important to the culprit? Does it prevent an FFT, or is there some other reason they need to keep "the legend of the golden smith" alive?
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Old 2010-08-06, 08:31   Link #15386
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
So, to sum up, Shkanon starts out as Kanon, then switches to Shannon for the rest of the day, possibly switching back to Kanon once to pick up Maria from the rose garden. EP3 seems to have the exact same schedule as EP1, and EP4 is so vague it could be anything. It wouldn't be a cakewalk, but as long as she can make the switch in a half-hour or so, it wouldn't even be that hard.
It's obviously logistically possible, it just has no clear benefit to this person.

If we look at what they're doing on the first day, Shannon has all the essential tasks of greeting guests, seeing to their rooms (probably including making up those rooms in the morning, so she's got to be Shannon when she "wakes up" unless she's never seen), meeting with the cousins, attending the adults at the mansion, and it's only around dinnertime that her schedule eases off.

Kanon has... gardening duties in the morning. Which aren't even particularly important. In fact, they're downright futile given the storm; the cousins recognize as much. Then his job is... what, exactly? "Spying for Kinzo" is given in the first few episodes, but we know there's nobody to report to and nobody to spy on, and if Shkanon is true, Shannon is already "spying" on people by attending to them.

Kanon meets Battler about 10-20 minutes before Shannon does, maybe half an hour at most. They barely interact. Shannon then hangs out with him for an enormous length of time. If she needed any information out of him, she either failed to take the opportunity to get it as Kanon (whom Battler would treat as a stranger) or had every opportunity to get it as Shannon.

So why even have Kanon there at all? There is no point to this charade.
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Old 2010-08-06, 08:39   Link #15387
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What if that was to "kill" Shannon while letting her still hang around with the other people?

Supposing this is a game where Battler is the detective, Battler needs to find the "culprit" in other words Shannon. So Shannon or Kinzo devised this plan to confuse Battler.

If he was even remotely competent he would probably said something like: "Kanon is the culprit!", because in EP1 he clearly is the most suspicious person.

But then the witch would have laughed at him and said "Kanon is not the culprit", because in truth the right answer is "Shannon is the culprit". In other words Kanon would work as a failsafe red herring to make the detective lose.
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Old 2010-08-06, 08:43   Link #15388
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That would be a very dirty trick, since Kanon (or Shannon) would inevitably disappear at some point, making them essentially Person X on whom anything subsequent can be blamed. Far from helping the witch (or "witch"), it would cheapen the mystery.

And again, if Kanon fakes his death in ep1, what was the point of Kanon being there at all? If there's no Kanon on duty, Shannon fakes her death and is completely liberated after the First Twilight. Why risk sticking around as Kanon?
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Old 2010-08-06, 08:46   Link #15389
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I said it, to make Kanon look like the most suspect culprit.

He's been the most suspicious person both in EP1 and EP2, which as far as we know are the only stories actually written by Beatrice.

Maybe the reason Shannon looks so happy when Battler refuses to think Kanon is the culprit like Rosa in EP2 is because she is impressed by the fact he wasn't fooled.
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Old 2010-08-06, 08:50   Link #15390
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But that isn't really because he's not fooled. It's because he doesn't want to believe it. He doesn't want to suspect Kanon or Gohda any more than he wants to suspect Jessica or his father. That's just his personality. He's not actually making a clever mental dodge of a misdirection, he's just accidentally stumbling away from it out of stubborn belief in the innocence of strangers.
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:00   Link #15391
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Yeah, but that's not the point.

Battler might have reacted in a way that Beatrice didn't predict. Normally you'd expect a cold blooded detective to say Kanon is the culprit, like Rosa did. The "Game Master" probably moved his pieces to make Kanon "the decoy" look as the most suspicious person completely diverting the attention from the real culprit.

Battler however doesn't fall for the trick, he doesn't think like your usual cold blooded detective and uses chessboard thinking to say that right because everything seems to point to Kanon then it mustn't be Kanon.
Maybe Battler got it for all the wrong reasons, but he still revealed himself to immune from the trick. That doesn't mean the trick was badly conceived, it's just Battler who's not very normal.
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:02   Link #15392
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What if that was to "kill" Shannon while letting her still hang around with the other people?

Supposing this is a game where Battler is the detective, Battler needs to find the "culprit" in other words Shannon. So Shannon or Kinzo devised this plan to confuse Battler.

If he was even remotely competent he would probably said something like: "Kanon is the culprit!", because in EP1 he clearly is the most suspicious person.

But then the witch would have laughed at him and said "Kanon is not the culprit", because in truth the right answer is "Shannon is the culprit". In other words Kanon would work as a failsafe red herring to make the detective lose.
Isn't that exactly like the logic switching trick Erika theorized towards the end? Why would Beato use that for this when she didn't use that trick there? Especially since that closed room was a big one.

Well in truth they're only suspicious because the red demands it not because they actually do or say anything suspicious. Not anything we've gotten to see anyway.
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:08   Link #15393
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Can you elaborate Judoh? I don't quite understand what you are referring to.

As far as I remember Erika only imagined that Kanon's name was George Tanaka. That isn't the same thing as to understand that Kanon doesn't exist.
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:18   Link #15394
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Can you elaborate Judoh? I don't quite understand what you are referring to.

As far as I remember Erika only imagined that Kanon's name was George Tanaka. That isn't the same thing as to understand that Kanon doesn't exist.
I'm talking about the logic switching trick Erika referred to for hiding in the closet or the bedroom. At first she theorized Kanon was hiding in the only place she hadn't checked, in the closet, and then she realized Beatrice could just proclaim he's not there because he could be hiding in the bedroom because of the order she checked the rooms in. But if she theorizes Kanon's hiding in the bedroom Beatrice will just say Kanon's not there because he's hiding in the closet. She thought this what Beatrice was planning.

The truth was that Erika was totally fooled. There was no such trick. Kanon wasn't hiding in either the bedroom or the closet. 'He disappeared with magic'. So Erika's idea was ultimately defeated in the end.

Your idea and Erika's are exactly the same kind of logic switching trick. It's just with the names of "suspicious people" instead of hiding places.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-06 at 09:37.
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:38   Link #15395
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
But if she theorizes Kanon's hiding in the bedroom Beatrice will just say Kanon's not there because he's hiding in the closet. She thought this what Beatrice was planning.
Why is that even a problem for Erika? What exactly stops her from saying "Kanon is hiding either in the closet or under the bed."? What exactly stops her from using blue twice, i.e. "Kanon is hiding under the bed." and then following up with "In the closet, then."?

Why is that even a trick?!
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Old 2010-08-06, 09:48   Link #15396
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That's what she did in the end Oliver.
However she almost missed that.

Suppose that Beatrice made Kanon hide under the bed, and suppose that Erika fell for that trick.
Then she would have simply said that Kanon was hiding in the closet, Beatrice would have shot at her, and game over.


@Judoh

There is a certain similarity between the two tricks, but I think it's a little pretentious to say they are the very same thing.
It is a lot easier to think that "if person A isn't in place X then he must be in place Y", but it's a completely different matter when you know that the one you consider a person is definitely implicated in a murder but the witch confirms he isn't.

It is after all a fact that Erika didn't even think about shkanon, even though she basically circled around it with her logic.
Now I can accept that shkanon might be false, but that Ryuukishi didn't have in mind shkanon when he wrote EP6 is absolutely impossible. However Erika doesn't even think about that.
Apparently Ryuukishi believes that it's a lot easier for Erika to think about all the stuff she thought rather than imagining Kanon.

And don't come tell me that Erika didn't think about shkanon because it was too preposterous. She's been thinking stuff even more ridiculous than that. And being non-existent herself isn't by any mean so much different from shkanon.
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Old 2010-08-06, 10:04   Link #15397
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Why is that even a problem for Erika? What exactly stops her from saying "Kanon is hiding either in the closet or under the bed."? What exactly stops her from using blue twice, i.e. "Kanon is hiding under the bed." and then following up with "In the closet, then."?
One explanation I can think of is that Erika can only load one blue, or theory, at a time and that she chose to eliminate the one that she thought would corner her first. She also says the only way she could defeat that is if she exposed them both at the same time, but she calls it an 'unfair trick' and for whatever reason didn't or couldn't expose both of them at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

@Judoh

There is a certain similarity between the two tricks, but I think it's a little pretentious to say they are the very same thing.
It is a lot easier to think that "if person A isn't in place X then he must be in place Y", but it's a completely different matter when you know that the one you consider a person is definitely implicated in a murder but the witch confirms he isn't.
Well it actually only works that way if Shannon and Kanon are the only people Battler can theorize about in your example. If there's any third or fourth person he can suspect to be 'the culprit' though a double check like that doesn't work.
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Old 2010-08-06, 10:14   Link #15398
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But Beatrice's game is probably like that.
She'd make it so only Kanon can possibly be the culprit, giving alibis to everyone else, and then checkmate by saying that Kanon doesn't exist or that he magically disappeared.
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Old 2010-08-06, 10:26   Link #15399
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Well I'd say since Beatrice deliberately chose not to do that in a similar situation that shows that she prefers something much simpler than that.

Other than that in regards to person X she made the argument that to prove person X is the culprit Battler has to prove all the other 18 people we know of all have alibis while this noncharacter doesn't. So I guess you' would be saying that the GM's game is so unfair that she's capable of giving all the other 'existing people' with no alibis an alibi so that these two are the final choice of 'either or' when her game is supposed to be on an equal level with the opposing player and Battler should be able to figure out the alibis of these people too without her doing that.
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Old 2010-08-06, 10:29   Link #15400
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Either way you need to expect a very unfair trick.
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