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Old 2010-08-20, 18:00   Link #16581
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, it's funny that EP7 didn't try to make it, because the case you can make against George now is incredibly black. We have enough evidence to guess that he's jealous of Shannon's relationship with Battler. Also, if he happens to know who Shannon really is, it means that marrying her could have the side effect of making him the family head. If this is one of his goals, it might give him reason to resent Jessica, who's been given the headship for doing nothing when he's been bullied by his mother all these years.
If you've read my analysis you'll know that I've ruled out becoming the head as one of his motives. I wasn't ever convinced of that motive either because it's so corny. He says at least twice to Shannon and Eva in episode 6 that he does not desire to become the family head. He says "I would like to refuse if it ever came to that". His goal seems to be the create his own family and his own business empire, and destroying his current family makes sense if he does it for that reason. If he does it for headship reasons he has no one to follow him. So the headship motive is total bunk. He actually seems to be the type to burn everything to the ground and rise his empire from the ashes like a phoenix.


He does say however that his envy for Battler and Jessica pushed him into hating women, which Battler left him alone for 6 years with. So he might be bitter toward Battler or resent Jessica and Shannon for sexist reasons or he might actually enjoy Jessica's company for her tomboyish attitude.

At this point I'm thinking that there at least three obstacles that could get in his way.
  • He's killed in the act and doesn't escape
  • If he escapes he finds out later that his lover is sterile or disagreeable and he can't create the family he planned
  • If he escapes he eventually realizes that even after getting everything his way he finds it unsatisfying because even after he has everything he ever wanted things are always decided for him by other people. He never gets to decide anything on his own.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-20 at 18:28.
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Old 2010-08-20, 18:02   Link #16582
Renall
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I still can't bring myself to blame him for it, which in combination with the (in my opinion) unsatisfactory development of the (I believe valid) excuses makes her seem pitiful and irrational.

Which is perfectly fine... so long as she's not the culprit.

What bothers me is that whether Shkanon is true or not, why is Kanon rebelling against Beatrice in the first two episodes? Whether he's her or not, shouldn't he already know what she is, how she got where she's going, and what she's up to? And how can he even oppose it if so (assuming no DID, because with DID it becomes stop-hitting-yourself)?

If it's because "Kanon was getting in the way, so he was eliminated," that just makes his existence even more extraneous. Shannon, of course, defies Beatrice as well, but I don't see what makes her existence any more or less problematic even taking all of that as metaphor, and she's not required to disappear like he is.
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Old 2010-08-20, 18:18   Link #16583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That said, it sort of makes you wonder how Battler's going to spin this into a not-sad story. Even if nobody turns out to have been a villain (unlikely, I hope), this family is pretty screwed up.
There's still the possibility of a terrible 'defeat the fate, smash the catbox and turn it into a new future' ending...Ryukishi (judging by Higurashi and Ookamikakushi) has a hang for terribly cheesy and overly happy endings.
I was smacking my head because of Will's remark. For me a mystery does not need a happy end at all. It's rather the opposite, the more horrible the revelations the better...so I just hope we won't get a terribly cheesy, magical solution for a happy end.

Quote:
If it's because "Kanon was getting in the way, so he was eliminated," that just makes his existence even more extraneous. Shannon, of course, defies Beatrice as well, but I don't see what makes her existence any more or less problematic even taking all of that as metaphor, and she's not required to disappear like he is.
The question here remains, why had he outlived 'his purpose' in Episode 2 and was it the same reason he died in Episode 1?! What purpose did he have that did not longer demand him?
We could assume that he started existing for Jessica (from the point they decided against being 家具) and her dying made him obsolete. But it wouldn't explain why those two seem to coincide with each other in this Episode. If he served as a cover for the one who killed her, why didn't it happen that way in other Episodes or why did he vanish in other Episodes but did not 'kill her'?

I'm still trying to find a way for the scenes involving Kanon to be not pure fiction, but just a way to cover up an actual event...but that somehow doesn't add up if he is purely fabricated.
Which sadly brings me back to him being Asumu's Battler...
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Old 2010-08-20, 18:26   Link #16584
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
There's still the possibility of a terrible 'defeat the fate, smash the catbox and turn it into a new future' ending...Ryukishi (judging by Higurashi and Ookamikakushi) has a hang for terribly cheesy and overly happy endings.
Problem is, this is not Higurashi. The kakeras in here work differently, as they are fiction. There's only one Rokkenjima, and a large chunk of people died. This is the reason why this is a mystery to begin with. The only survivor we know of is Eva.

Perhaps a good ending would involve Battler surviving too, and maybe Lyon as well.
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Old 2010-08-20, 18:31   Link #16585
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What bothers me is that whether Shkanon is true or not, why is Kanon rebelling against Beatrice in the first two episodes? Whether he's her or not, shouldn't he already know what she is, how she got where she's going, and what she's up to? And how can he even oppose it if so (assuming no DID, because with DID it becomes stop-hitting-yourself)?

If it's because "Kanon was getting in the way, so he was eliminated," that just makes his existence even more extraneous. Shannon, of course, defies Beatrice as well, but I don't see what makes her existence any more or less problematic even taking all of that as metaphor, and she's not required to disappear like he is.
Spoiler for size:
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-08-20 at 18:43.
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Old 2010-08-20, 19:13   Link #16586
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Spoiler for size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizot...ality_disorder
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Old 2010-08-20, 19:14   Link #16587
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Problem is, this is not Higurashi. The kakeras in here work differently, as they are fiction. There's only one Rokkenjima, and a large chunk of people died. This is the reason why this is a mystery to begin with. The only survivor we know of is Eva.

Perhaps a good ending would involve Battler surviving too, and maybe Lyon as well.
Closest thing I can imagine to a "happy" ending while retaining his "the ending would be bittersweet" + the "no happy ending" statement would be akin to Battler being alive in 1998.

Since this is foreshadowed in Ange's wish, it's very possible...

Super Happy Ending: "Let my family come home." Impossible, or at least very heavily trampled upon by ep7.

Bittersweet Compromise Ending: "Or at least let my brother." After the ep7 Tea Party, this one's red flagged like hell.

My gut tells me Battler has got to get through this. The more folks who also survive, the worse things go from there. As funny as the "everyone faked their deaths" idea is, it would be awful for Ange.

Unless ryukishi spins it as the greatest prank of all time and even Ange's role was acted out brilliantly. It might take something like that to surprise Bernkastel.
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Old 2010-08-20, 19:37   Link #16588
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I still can't bring myself to blame him for it, which in combination with the (in my opinion) unsatisfactory development of the (I believe valid) excuses makes her seem pitiful and irrational.

Which is perfectly fine... so long as she's not the culprit.

What bothers me is that whether Shkanon is true or not, why is Kanon rebelling against Beatrice in the first two episodes? Whether he's her or not, shouldn't he already know what she is, how she got where she's going, and what she's up to? And how can he even oppose it if so (assuming no DID, because with DID it becomes stop-hitting-yourself)?

If it's because "Kanon was getting in the way, so he was eliminated," that just makes his existence even more extraneous. Shannon, of course, defies Beatrice as well, but I don't see what makes her existence any more or less problematic even taking all of that as metaphor, and she's not required to disappear like he is.
The point is that he is extraneous. We're never given a satisfactory reason for why that personality would be created in the first place. Aside from the possibility of Kanon being a little-brother companion during her time on Rokkenjimma. You know, for the sake of alleviating boredom when the cousins werent around. Moreover, if Kanon exists merely as a companion construct for Shannon, then frankly, what need does he have of knowing the other personalities exist, or of his own true nature?

This is my first post on these forums, since Ive been bothered to get an account registered, and that being said, Ive been suspecting that George is the culprit since I finished reading Episode 4. Episode 6 confirmed the circumstances of George's state of mind for me, at the very least, so it's certainly not implausible at this stage.
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Old 2010-08-20, 20:52   Link #16589
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I like that Yasu/Beatrice child thing Chrono.I wouldn't doubt it or mind it if it was said to be true.
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Old 2010-08-21, 00:26   Link #16590
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I have a question, though its possibly because I haven't played through the games recently and haven't seen 6 or 7 at all except through spoilers.

Spoiler for Child from 18 years ago.:
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Old 2010-08-21, 06:14   Link #16591
Used Can
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The thing is, technically speaking, a 19th person was indeed mentioned several times in the first four games. In addition, Shannon and Kanon were introduced, which, again, technically speaking are this person. Not to mention that we got that flashback from 19 years ago in EP3, and some people did theorise about the possibility of a 3rd Beatrice. So, this person from 19 years ago is nothing obscure, and was indeed hinted.

Moreover, EP7 spent a large amount of focus on Yasu/Lyon to say the whole thing was false.
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Old 2010-08-21, 06:28   Link #16592
Oliver
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Technically speaking, a Beatrice-3 person was hypothesised by the characters right off the bat and kept being talked about for the entirety of the text. So was a mysterious servant that "fell from the stairs" and was hurt (but not died) for disparaging Beatrice -- that story comes up in almost every episode.

There are no logical chains I am aware of not relying on unfounded speculation that allow to conclude that a) this mysterious servant story is the same as the "Rosa kills Beatrice-2" story from Ep3, and b) that a child of Beatrice-3 exists. That's not to say that unfounded speculation has no use, I lean back on it often, but I can't say that I find the conclusions in this case satisfying and the "man from 19 years ago" does not appear to mesh well with the first four episodes.
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Old 2010-08-21, 06:33   Link #16593
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I think that'll ultimately come down to personal opinion. To me, it works almost perfectly.
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Old 2010-08-21, 06:44   Link #16594
Oliver
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Rosa's story is the contention point here.

On one hand, Will uses it as an argument in favour of equating the servant accident with Beatrice-3. On the other hand, it is radically different despite structural similarities, and cannot possibly happen this way if the man-from-19-years-ago stories are true.
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:11   Link #16595
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Although I haven't read it yet, I'd just like to say - ANOTHER Beatrice?? I mean, the entities that could be referred to as "Beatrice" already numbered more than could be counted on both hands :/.
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:20   Link #16596
Used Can
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Although I haven't read it yet, I'd just like to say - ANOTHER Beatrice?? I mean, the entities that could be referred to as "Beatrice" already numbered more than could be counted on both hands :/.
They are all fantasy/meta entities. So, it doesn't really matter. And their purpose is to show different aspects of Beatrice. In the end, in the real world, there's only one Beatrice.
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:34   Link #16597
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Wasn't the original Beatrice an exploding golden submarine that Battler stole from Kinzo and painted white?

Also, why does Claire have the same face as her?
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:34   Link #16598
Oliver
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Same as how there's only one President of the US, you mean?
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:47   Link #16599
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Wasn't the original Beatrice an exploding golden submarine that Battler stole from Kinzo and painted white?


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Also, why does Claire have the same face as her?
She's the second form Beato had in Yasu's head. That, and R07 was probably lazy. There's enough copy-paste of faces in EP7.
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Old 2010-08-21, 09:05   Link #16600
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Yeah, but... I mean

Beato (Meta Beatrice)
Dress-Beatrice
Suit-Beatrice
Beatrice 2 ("The human")
Beatrice 1 (The original human?)
Virgilia ("Predecessor Beatrice")
Moetrice
Beatrice the elder
EVA-Beatrice
ANGE-Beatrice
MARIA-Beatrice
Beatrice reborn

Plus whatever you get in ep7... I mean, soon you'd be able to do a ceremony using only Beatrices.
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