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Old 2010-08-23, 05:31   Link #16621
Digdri
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As we are back to the question why he have a suit Beato and a dress Beato on the board an how this butterflies factor in here is a theory about this.

I guess I get a "Slowpoke!" for this but did anyone ever mention on these forums how the pattern on Beatrice dress vague resemble a symbol of flames surrounding a round object like a bomb?
So that my guess for the distinction for those pieces. Suit Beato is either the human culprit or the human messing with people by disguising as Beatrice. On the other side dress Beatrice is the reference to the explosion.

Consider when she changed from suit to dress in the different games. It was just at the very end of EP2 & EP4. And she did very little afterwards. One thing was talking / discussion stuff with Battler but that fantasy / meta story (so disregarded as noise), the other stuff was burning Kinzo to death and somehow killing Battler in EP4 and she was also killing Battler and Kinzo in EP2 with the goatmen. And the goats were discussed many times as a metaphor for fire or whatever effect the "incident" had on the people. Kinzo being burned/eaten may not even be a fantasy scene as this may just refer to his corpse getting burned because nobody did it in the story via boiler incident.
Makes you wonder what was the big different of EP2/4 to EP1/3 so that the stuff about Kinzo played out so differently.

About the butterflies:
UsagiTenpura already pointed out that they only appear at the very end of the story except for stuff like Kanons death (in the boiler room where someone got burned before! hint hint ^^) and Shannons butterfly delusions when checking the mansion at night.
So I guess they also represent fire / aftermath of the explosion the same way the goats do (they even were hunting Rosa/Maria together in EP2).

Using this interpretation the last scene in EP1 makes a lot of scene: The kids see butterflies spreading in the hall and Maria calls Battler foolish for fighting Beatrice with a gun as he cannot not hurt her in any way. Even how the anime added this scene with the butterflies dividing after he shots seem to fit perfectly.
Only strange part is this deflecting the bullets part but it guess that just refering to Natsuhi failed duel.

I really like the idea how this dress was rubbing the answer right in your face from the start but most people never noticing where to look.
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Old 2010-08-23, 07:45   Link #16622
Leafsnail
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I think Suit-Beatrice is first seen when Kyrie spots her in the hall. She's also present in the letter giving of ep2, I think.

In other words, she's suit-Beatrice when someone actually sees her. Could be because someone's actually dressed up as Beatrice, and is wearing that outfit?
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Old 2010-08-23, 08:10   Link #16623
Pikumin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digdri View Post
About the butterflies:
UsagiTenpura already pointed out that they only appear at the very end of the story except for stuff like Kanons death (in the boiler room where someone got burned before! hint hint ^^) and Shannons butterfly delusions when checking the mansion at night.
So I guess they also represent fire / aftermath of the explosion the same way the goats do (they even were hunting Rosa/Maria together in EP2).

Using this interpretation the last scene in EP1 makes a lot of scene: The kids see butterflies spreading in the hall and Maria calls Battler foolish for fighting Beatrice with a gun as he cannot not hurt her in any way. Even how the anime added this scene with the butterflies dividing after he shots seem to fit perfectly.
Only strange part is this deflecting the bullets part but it guess that just refering to Natsuhi failed duel.

I really like the idea how this dress was rubbing the answer right in your face from the start but most people never noticing where to look.
lol I just checked a picture of Beato and looked at her dress and noticed it DOES look like a fire surrounding a bomb or something of the like
The pattern appears three times on her dress so maybe there are three bombs.

As for the goats, I imagined at the end of EP2 that they represented the explosion, and Rosa and Maria were engulfed in it. But during the underground scene in EP4 one of the goats seems to represent Gohda(the one that Krauss kills).

I don't think the butterflies/goats themselves are that significant, but merely serve as a means to cover an event up.
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Old 2010-08-23, 08:21   Link #16624
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The dress may not actually exist anywhere but the portrait. In that case, the suit-Beato outfit being the disguise seems probable. It's a far easier outfit to assemble and operate in than a giant flowing dress, regardless.

Of course if we buy that the dress does exist and is stored where ep7 says, she could appear when someone goes down there and sets the trigger.
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Old 2010-08-23, 09:07   Link #16625
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Could also be to show off her two winged eagle tatoo.
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:15   Link #16626
Pikumin
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Could also be to show off her two winged eagle tatoo.
Her tattoo is still only one winged, if you look at the anime concept art.
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:35   Link #16627
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Really? Coz if you compare it to Shannon's, it's a whole head rather than half a head...
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:58   Link #16628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Spoiler:
That event sorrounding Sakutarou is more or less official by now.
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-08-23, 11:43   Link #16629
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
That event sorrounding Sakutarou is more or less official by now.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
We should definitely go over the anime with a fine tooth comb looking for additional details.
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Old 2010-08-23, 11:55   Link #16630
Renall
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Well, if the anime is correct, Kinzo lives in a magical home whose dimensions shift and change randomly at different camera angles, the portrait varies anywhere from 6 to 12 feet in height, and the parlor is large enough to play half-court basketball in.

Some details may be interesting, but Deen sure messed a lot of little day to day things up.
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Old 2010-08-23, 12:06   Link #16631
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, if the anime is correct, Kinzo lives in a magical home whose dimensions shift and change randomly at different camera angles, the portrait varies anywhere from 6 to 12 feet in height, and the parlor is large enough to play half-court basketball in.

Some details may be interesting, but Deen sure messed a lot of little day to day things up.
Well, Ryukishi went over the script, not the animation.
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:42   Link #16632
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, if the anime is correct, Kinzo lives in a magical home whose dimensions shift and change randomly at different camera angles, the portrait varies anywhere from 6 to 12 feet in height, and the parlor is large enough to play half-court basketball in.

Some details may be interesting, but Deen sure messed a lot of little day to day things up.
But that is a clue! Kanon wasn't in the guestroom since a change of angle caused the room to shrink, thus meaning he was instead inside the wall!

In any case, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to live in a hall of mirrors.
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:45   Link #16633
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
But that is a clue! Kanon wasn't in the guestroom since a change of angle caused the room to shrink, thus meaning he was instead inside the wall!
Nah. Kanon wasn't in the guestroom because he couldn't be shown in the guestroom. That was because he was the one operating the camera!
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:51   Link #16634
k//eternal
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That'd explain all the shots of Jessica's ass...
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:53   Link #16635
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Nah. Kanon wasn't in the guestroom because he couldn't be shown in the guestroom. That was because he was the one operating the camera!
FOOL! Kanon WAS the camera. Have you ever watched "The Brave Little Toaster"?



His name was romanised poorly in this pic, though.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:08   Link #16636
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
FOOL! Kanon WAS the camera. Have you ever watched "The Brave Little Toaster"?
No. The first independently mobile toaster that comes to mind is the one in Ghostbusters 2.

Kanon being the camera would also explain why Nanjo can't save him in Ep1. Nobody on the island can work anything more complicated than a spoon, especially not Nanjo!
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Old 2010-08-23, 16:51   Link #16637
Pikumin
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
No. The first independently mobile toaster that comes to mind is the one in Ghostbusters 2.

Kanon being the camera would also explain why Nanjo can't save him in Ep1. Nobody on the island can work anything more complicated than a spoon, especially not Nanjo!
It would also explain why the ocean looks grey to him, if he's an old-fashioned camera.
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Old 2010-08-23, 20:25   Link #16638
Helmet-kun
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...You know, it's quite possible that Episode one wasn't a game at all. Remember that it is after episode one that the Battler vs. Beato Showdown begins.
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Old 2010-08-23, 22:11   Link #16639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
...You know, it's quite possible that Episode one wasn't a game at all. Remember that it is after episode one that the Battler vs. Beato Showdown begins.
Except that it says in Episode 1 that the bottle letter later found described the events of the witch's game and in Episode 4 we learn that there were actually 2 bottle letters, having only the setting, the characters and the fact that everybody dies in common.
So unless we haven't been told the content of that other bottle yet and we are only led to believe that we have, I think it is safe to assume that Episode 1 and 2 are the letters.

Episode 1 is also counted as a round of the game within Umineko's continuity even by Battler and Beato themselves when they discuss all games during the finale in Episode 4. Only because Battler was not able to discuss that game 'live' so to speak, does not mean it wasn't observed by the witches.
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Old 2010-08-23, 22:21   Link #16640
Renall
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Yeah, right now the assumption is the two bottle stories are Legend and Turn. We might be mistaken, but so far no evidence has suggested otherwise.

Also, Bern and Lambda can speak of the events in ep1.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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