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Old 2010-09-02, 21:21   Link #17101
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
There aren't. Helmet brought up the fact that Vance was ambiguously gay and since Lion was also ambiguously gay then Lion could have been the detective, but yeah the story itself plus the Dine rules plus the fact that Vance was only as gay as your average bishounen is in Japanese fiction kinda puts that assumption in doubt.

Yeah there is no reason why Lion should be the detective here. He is the Watson.
BUT ASS PINCHES ARE THE ULTIMATE LIE DETECTOR!
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EDIT: You know, I was wondering if there is any chance Sherlock Holmes would ever show up in Umineko. I mean, he is public domain so anyone can use him now. And it would be a fitting end. Plot twist that not even Battler can see, then SHERLOCK STORM and end. AFTER ALL SHERLOCK HOLMES FITS WITH EVERYTHING.

...Don't mind me just rambling after editor spent 25 minutes trying to convince me to throw Sherlock Holmes in a novel about pirates. Who are detectives, but still. Argh.

Okay now that I'm done complaining, I actually would like to see Sherlock Holmes in the Umineko universe as a Meta-Character. It would be interesting to say the least.

...But again Sherlock Holmes art made by Ryuukishi? Pass.
Ah...

But what about Sherlock Beato?

Edit: Or even the ultimate plot twist:

Sherlock GOHDA, with Krauss as his Watson!
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:23   Link #17102
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Practically all the famous detectives of the golden age of mystery are public domain now.

However I don't think Ryuukishi will ever throw them inside the novel. At best he could show a character with a similar name which somehow represent the original but has a completely different personality.

He did so with two writers.
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:25   Link #17103
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Practically all the famous detectives of the golden age of mystery are public domain now.

However I don't think Ryuukishi will ever throw them inside the novel. At best he could show a character with a similar name which somehow represent the original but has a completely different personality.

He did so with two writers.
I'd actually love to see how he adapts Conan Doyle. The boy genius rendition has already been done to death, so I wonder how Ryukishi envisions his representation?
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:31   Link #17104
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ep8 will most likely parallel ep4, so whatever happens, I predict some 1998 (or some other future time period).
dreamenddischarger remix.


I called it.
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:52   Link #17105
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dreamenddischarger remix.


I called it.
Oh god, dreamenddischarger remix as the theme song to the fight between Battler and Bern.
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:53   Link #17106
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Off-Current-Topic Theory here:

Has anyone realized that before Kanon's death, he would always declare 'not being furniture' or something similar to this? Would this mean 'death of personality as well', increasing the ShKanon theory? This would also dodge the reds in EP6, when Kanon 'does not exist anywhere in the room', for Kanon 'has not become furniture'.

Question: Were there any observers during George's confession/engagement to Shannon? Since there were no observers, who's to say he actually proposed to her, and not actually go on a killing spree? That scene seems quite unimportant though; or is there any clues to it?
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Old 2010-09-02, 21:58   Link #17107
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Off-Current-Topic Theory here:

Has anyone realized that before Kanon's death, he would always declare 'not being furniture' or something similar to this? Would this mean 'death of personality as well', increasing the ShKanon theory? This would also dodge the reds in EP6, when Kanon 'does not exist anywhere in the room', for Kanon 'has not become furniture'.

Question: Were there any observers during George's confession/engagement to Shannon? Since there were no observers, who's to say he actually proposed to her, and not actually go on a killing spree? That scene seems quite unimportant though; or is there any clues to it?
There's no observers, but we have word of god and multiple corroborations of George's intentions towards Shannon.

That doesnt mean that George isn't actually using that as an opportunity to up and commit the first twilight, though.
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Old 2010-09-02, 22:33   Link #17108
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
That scene seems quite unimportant though; or is there any clues to it?
The proposal scene offers several hints not just for Shannon and George, but also for other characters as well.
  • It establishes that George is willing to order servants for selfish reasons
  • It's the scene wear the "on" Kanji in the servants names and fukuin house are first talked about
  • It establishes George's admiration for his father through retelling Hideyoshi's stories, as well as elaborating on his love for Shannon in each episode.
  • It's a scene that gives Battler, Beatrice, and other characters like Erika, and Hideyoshi little tiny bits of character development.
  • It's also an opportunity for murder as long as things don't go wrong. Since something stops George from being able to propose in episodes 4 and 5.

The logic that "this scene is unimportant or there are no observers so it didn't happen" can be applied to many other scenes too with this same logic. So why don't we list some of them shall we?
  • Eva and Hideyoshi just before 2nd twilight EP1
  • Natsuhi duels with the witch EP1
  • Jessica confesses to Kanon EP2
  • Kumasawa and Jessica in front of the witch's portrait EP2
  • Kanon and Shannon in the hallway EP2
  • Eva asks Hideyoshi "does George hate me?" EP3
  • All of the backstory with Ange and Maria in EP4
  • Kanon and Shannon in the servants room at the beginning of EP6

Why don't we just rip out every line of dialogue in the story while we're at it?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-02 at 22:49.
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Old 2010-09-02, 23:16   Link #17109
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
He even calls Lion "Watson" twice. Why are there doubts?
The only thing I really doubt is Will being the detective:
  1. The Spectator's Authority bothers me alot. While you can, sure, go around and demand specific information and certain actions, it's only useful if you actually believe the information given. Recall that Bern only knows of some truths. In other words, we have no real way of knowing it is Bern's made up lie or a truth she collected from the original board, twisted it, and played it out.
  2. Bern wouldn't have to show Will anything if he wasn't the detective. Combine that with 'Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.' and we have the choice of whether or not to believe Will or not.

Obviously a 'detective' isn't just anyone who detects things, at least not in Umineko. A detective is someone who either makes the Detective Proclamation or is declared the detective by the person who runs the board.

So. Who's running the board, exactly?

...Featherine, I guess? It's not Bern, it most likely isn't Will, and unless Leon tripped and knocked over the chessboard(or magically went batshit insane), Featherine seems the most likely choice. Since she is the Witch of Theatergoing, I wouldn't be surprised if she saw Vance in a different light and created...Leon... and made him buddy up with Will through Bern, who's just directing the story. Leon and Will die a tragic, sad death, the end, "now that we fed the cats, let's go eat Ange-burgers."

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Dine's 6th. The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic
Actually:

Leon wasn't there when Will broke Shanon...Why? Is it because he simply couldn't see it, and to try to cover it up, Featherine gave him an excuse to leave?

Leon was also by his side when Will was questioning the family. And he was paying attention. And going around asking politely/making Will be nice.

Leon also says that he thinks Beatrice is the culprit (didn't he? Don't...really remember that well, but he said something along those lines). While he never explained why, he did analyze the information given to him and formed his own conclusion. He, however, never finished his job...unless he's stuck in EP8 with Will and trying to to deny what happened in EP7.
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Old 2010-09-03, 00:06   Link #17110
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For the Will versus Bern fight in Tea party, the motive of Will was to destory the claim of Kyrie and Rudolf going on a killing spree and murder Leon.

It was all related to that Leon was only created under some very unlikely condition (probability of 1/256xxxx), he was said to be the only hope of Kureru (the Beatrice in white) as he was the only one not becoming Yasu and was raised well.

But Bern wanted to make that even though Leon was born, he must be killed in the end by Kyrie. In this way, Bern crashed the last hope of Kureru.

Therefore Will became the knight in shining armor to come to save Leon by challenging Bern's tale.

Will's focus was on Kyrie and Rudolf as culprits in Leon's world, not they murdering the rest in Ange's 1986 world.

--------------

Well, for Rudolf as culprit, it was already established long ago that he was doing some dirty business in US, so he was a risk-taker himself. When the opportunity came, he may grasp it, even it was murder.

Second, he was portrayed to be trusting Kyrie's judgment a lot, so if Kyrie led the killing, he may just well follow her order.

In fact, one could easily see Kyrie was manipulating Rudolf's male chauvinism into accepting what she was doing, she was challenging Rudolf "Are you a man who dare to kill people? Are you able to grip the chance?"
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Old 2010-09-03, 01:03   Link #17111
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A thought on how Bern could defeat Will in spite of all his rule-slinging...

...did she ever actually suggest this story was a mystery? Oh, she asked him to answer a question. She asked him to figure things out. But she always seemed a bit... dodgy and unresponsive to assertions of rules. If the genre were not a mystery, none of that would matter, would it?

A story with a mystery in it is not, by default, a "mystery story."
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Old 2010-09-03, 01:22   Link #17112
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
A thought on how Bern could defeat Will in spite of all his rule-slinging...

...did she ever actually suggest this story was a mystery? Oh, she asked him to answer a question. She asked him to figure things out. But she always seemed a bit... dodgy and unresponsive to assertions of rules. If the genre were not a mystery, none of that would matter, would it?

A story with a mystery in it is not, by default, a "mystery story."
Thats true!

In fact, if we accept the premise that Episode 7 truly wasn't a mystery, we can accept the incredibly blatant breaking of the inherent trust meant to be shown to the reader represented by Bern's blatant railroading of Will.

If none of the clues are shown in good faith to the reader, then it doesn't qualify as Mystery. There is also ample evidence that Bern's tale takes place on a very similar gameboard, not Beato's. This is indicated in Episode 6's ??? when Featherinne arbitrarily deems Bernkastel the Game Master/Territory lord of this game.

It is said, specifically, to be a game board "very similar to Beatrice's".

Therefore, Episode 7 can simply be a "demonstration" session where Bern presents her twisted view of the events on Rokkenjimma just to troll observers and show off on her part.

What an excellent troll. With this interpretation, we can assert that the Reds and facts related can be trusted, as they are the foundation of the board itself, but the presentation is itself complete nonsense.

All without violating the rules of Beato's game...Interesting. Great observation...Even if it's incorrect, it still works wonderfully.
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Old 2010-09-03, 03:13   Link #17113
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...did she ever actually suggest this story was a mystery?
Bern's trump card in Tea Party was "THIS IS ALL TRUTH.... Yeah, I know all the problems with this red, but she still said it. And explained why she was able to say it. She claims that it's really what happened in reality on that day and reality doesn't have to follow any rules for mystery, that is our previous episodes.

I have a mixed feelings about Tea Party. On the first hand, I don't want to believe it and ???? reinforces this feeling. But here's the question "what else should we expect with all the information we have?" I've already proposed the idea that Shannon just forgot to turn off the bomb, that was turned it comic by the artist, but that's just silly. On the other hand, I can see how it fits thematically and finally having a bit of truth, even if (maybe) incomplete, after all the fictions is refreshing. And if anything, we learned that the relatives aren't that dumb, as Beatrice wants them to be in her fictions.


While I can see how people can doubt (and not without a basis) the authenticity of Tea Party, doubting the whole ep7 is a little too far, in my opinion. In this episode Bern was just giving the answers to all riddles that Featherine asked from her. And Featherine acknowledged that she did her work splendidly. If you want to doubt that, you're doubting the whole Featherine's reasoning so far. And using that reasoning she wrote 4 episodes, Ange confirmed that they are similar to Beatrice's:
......However, though this forgery she had written was still in its first stages, ...it definitely felt as though it had something very similar to the tales in those message bottles.
Speaking metaphorically, ......one might call it a scent.
An indescribable stern atmosphere, ......like a stuffy library.
The 'Beatrice' who wrote the message bottles and Hachijo Tohya are different people.
......And yet, this has the same scent as that tale....

Basically, that means that we have 4 episodes of pure lie. Oh, what a great troll it is.
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Old 2010-09-03, 03:31   Link #17114
TehChron
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Bern's trump card in Tea Party was "THIS IS ALL TRUTH.... Yeah, I know all the problems with this red, but she still said it. And explained why she was able to say it. She claims that it's really what happened in reality on that day and reality doesn't have to follow any rules for mystery, that is our previous episodes.
Except Episode 5 spent all that time lecturing us on the nature of multiple truths.

And how Episode 4 spent that precious Okonogi screentime on a speech lecturing on the subjective nature of one's own truth of the situation. Therefore, Episode 7's Tea Party can only be considered the TRUTH of an extremely subjective troll loli who possesses no love.

Moreover, at least you agree that since Episode 7 can be interpreted as not being fantasy, we can therefore explain why the Van Dine laws wouldn't be effective, and Bernkastel's confidence in that regard.
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I have a mixed feelings about Tea Party. On the first hand, I don't want to believe it and ???? reinforces this feeling. But here's the question "what else should we expect with all the information we have?" I've already proposed the idea that Shannon just forgot to turn off the bomb, that was turned it comic by the artist, but that's just silly. On the other hand, I can see how it fits thematically and finally having a bit of truth, even if (maybe) incomplete, after all the fictions is refreshing. And if anything, we learned that the relatives aren't that dumb, as Beatrice wants them to be in her fictions.
Beatrice hasn't portrayed them as incompetent consistently. There are episodes where Krauss comes across as truly ruthless and intellectually awesome (episode 1), episodes where Eva is even more intelligent than Kyrie (Episode 3), Rosa is also skilled and somewhat competent, if paranoid (Episodes 2 and 3), Rudolph was able to create a somewhat successful corporation between himself and Kyrie by the current timeline, and has been mentioned on several occasions as the most competent businessman of the siblings (Episode 6). Hideyoshi built up his chain of restaurants from scratch (Various Episodes).

You're confusing competence with murderous intent, I believe. Beato has never portrayed them as incompetent, simply as reacting irrationally to, you know, a mysterious chain of closed room murders taking place during the middle of a typhoon.

Quote:
While I can see how people can doubt (and not without a basis) the authenticity of Tea Party, doubting the whole ep7 is a little too far, in my opinion. In this episode Bern was just giving the answers to all riddles that Featherine asked from her. And Featherine acknowledged that she did her work splendidly. If you want to doubt that, you're doubting the whole Featherine's reasoning so far. And using that reasoning she wrote 4 episodes, Ange confirmed that they are similar to Beatrice's:
......However, though this forgery she had written was still in its first stages, ...it definitely felt as though it had something very similar to the tales in those message bottles.
Speaking metaphorically, ......one might call it a scent.
An indescribable stern atmosphere, ......like a stuffy library.
The 'Beatrice' who wrote the message bottles and Hachijo Tohya are different people.
......And yet, this has the same scent as that tale....

Basically, that means that we have 4 episodes of pure lie. Oh, what a great troll it is.
Indeed doubting Episode 7 in its entirety is foolhardy, but the Tea Party was presented in such a blatant way as to throw in our faces how much of a troll it is. To say "hey it works, Im gonna accept it" is pure intellectual laziness, and frankly, everyone that does that deserves to get trolled.
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Old 2010-09-03, 03:53   Link #17115
cmos
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Except Episode 5 spent all that time lecturing us on the nature of multiple truths.
Except it all refers to the catbox, that was destroyed with the death of Beatrice and her illusion, by Bern's words, of course. The real, true truth is always objective, because it's truth and because of that can be said in red.


Quote:
You're confusing competence with murderous intent, I believe. Beato has never portrayed them as incompetent, simply as reacting irrationally to, you know, a mysterious chain of closed room murders taking place during the middle of a typhoon.
I didn't make myself quite clear, I believe. The fact that her extremely risky plan always succeeds is enough proof of their incompetence. In Tea Party Rudolf even says something like: "I can believe, that you could have killed some people, but to kill 13 people in various extravagant ways...do you really think that we are that stupid?" Yes, she did.

Quote:
Tea Party was presented in such a blatant way as to throw in our faces how much of a troll it is.
Except Bern prefers and always trolled us with the truth, she never purely made up something like Beato or Lambda. But again, I don't want to believe her and don't mind being trolled, but for now I think that her interpretation is quite sound.
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Old 2010-09-03, 04:04   Link #17116
TehChron
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Except it all refers to the catbox, that was destroyed with the death of Beatrice and her illusion, by Bern's words, of course. The real, true truth is always objective, because it's truth and because of that can be said in red.
Incorrect, if it is the fact of the matter, why take a roundabout way of phrasing it? Why not go so far as to demonstrate her finishing that sentence?

Once again, Ryukishi has emphasized in at least two separate episodes that "truth" varies from person to person, and is, as Okonogi put it, "something that may not truly exist".


Quote:
I didn't make myself quite clear, I believe. The fact that her extremely risky plan always succeeds is enough proof of their incompetence. In Tea Party Rudolf even says something like: "I can believe, that you could have killed some people, but to kill 13 people in various extravagant ways...do you really think that we are that stupid?" Yes, she did.
And you take such a blatant lampshade seriously?

Quote:
Except Bern prefers and always trolled us with the truth, she never purely made up something like Beato or Lambda. But again, I don't want to believe her and don't mind being trolled, but for now I think that her interpretation is quite sound.
The Court of Illusions Trial in Episode 5. Erika in general, if you're looking for precedent of them trolling us with twisted variations of the "truth", or even entirely made up theories "accepted as the truth".

'Nuff said.

But hey, if you really believe that happened, then Im sorry to let you know that you're in for heavy disappointment when Episode 8 comes out. Unless you want to say that Bernkastel, who never utilized the Golden Truth, is somehow more aware of events than Battler, who wound up becoming Game Master and even made a true game, then you're not going to like Episode 8.
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Old 2010-09-03, 04:37   Link #17117
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Incorrect, if it is the fact of the matter, why take a roundabout way of phrasing it? Why not go so far as to demonstrate her finishing that sentence?
Bern's version: because Ange didn't let her. Of course, you don't want to believe it. Me too. That's why I wrote that I know all the problems with this red and you don't need to point them to me.

Quote:
Once again, Ryukishi has emphasized in at least two separate episodes that "truth" varies from person to person, and is, as Okonogi put it, "something that may not truly exist".
That's called "interpretation". It doesn't change the objective fact of event of the past itself. People can't know the truth, because all clues were destroyed in the explosion, creating the catbox. The only ones who can open it are the survivors, who know the truth and, by Bern's words, the Traveler witches who are able to destroy the catbox itself. Eva is presumed to be the only survivor and she kept her mouth shut, thus closing the catbox for all eternity. Therefore, for other people truth is indeed doesn't exist - they can't possibly know it. They can only create different interpretations. But witches can and Bern says that she showed it to us.
Maybe Battler really survived and will tell us the true story as another survivor in ep8.


Quote:
The Court of Illusions Trial in Episode 5. Erika in general, if you're looking for precedent of them trolling us with twisted variations of the "truth", or even entirely made up theories "accepted as the truth".
They were all logical conclusions from the facts presented, Bern didn't invent anything. And her "epic trolling" moments are mostly her declaring something unpleasant in red.

Quote:
But hey, if you really believe that happened, then Im sorry to let you know that you're in for heavy disappointment when Episode 8 comes out.
I never wrote something like that, I don't see why you attacking me. I guess I made some fans angry.
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Old 2010-09-03, 05:14   Link #17118
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They were all logical conclusions from the facts presented, Bern didn't invent anything. And her "epic trolling" moments are mostly her declaring something unpleasant in red.
Kinzo is dead!

Yet, Bernkastel who knew that perfectly made up a conclusion about Kinzo carrying off the corpses and his indecent relationship with Natsuhi and all that shit.
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Old 2010-09-03, 05:49   Link #17119
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Yet, Bernkastel who knew that perfectly made up a conclusion about Kinzo carrying off the corpses and his indecent relationship with Natsuhi and all that shit.
But the detective can't use supernatural knowledge in his reasoning due to Knox's 2nd. There was no way to prove that Kinzo is dead by human means. Only Natushi, who knew the truth, could reveal that, but she refused. Because she claimed that he's alive and he couldn't have existed anywhere except her bed during that night, the logical conclusion about their relationships followed. And it was just an interrogation to force Natsuhi to admit that Kinzo is dead and thus to reveal more truth, achieve "perfect victory". Compare it to Tea Party where Bern has no objective reason of showing lies, except trolling, but has a reason to show the truth - to perform her duty as the miko of Featherine and "drag out the guts", i.e. show the dirty truth, of the tale and Beatrice's illusion.
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Old 2010-09-03, 06:12   Link #17120
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[...] Therefore, for other people truth is indeed doesn't exist - they can't possibly know it. They can only create different interpretations. But witches can and Bern says that she showed it to us.
Now... why do you think that witches can? They told you?

If Bernkastel really can observe numerous kakera as she claims, there is no point for her to seek anything and "reach" any kind of truth. She can just go and see it and say this was the truth, period, end of story. But the conversation between Bern and Featherine clearly says this is not the case, that Bernkastel had to "reach" a truth through thinking and making conclusions.

How exactly is that different from interpretation?
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