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Old 2010-09-03, 11:08   Link #17141
Jan-Poo
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I have evidences you have nothing! And there are a lot more evidences than you named.

What are you trying to do Renall? You go again with: "I can say that "X" isn't conclusive because I can imagine that evidences "A" "B" "C" "D" "E" are just fake, and evidences "F" "G" "H" "I" "J" are unconfirmed, and evidences "K" "L" "M" "N" can have a different interpretation."

So fine you can even say that Battler's real name is Frank at this point. There's no really any way to make a constructive discussion if you do not accept any premise.
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Old 2010-09-03, 11:15   Link #17142
Renall
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No, see, you just don't get it.

What evidence we have, we both have. We have the same evidence. We have evidence like:
  • "Claire claims to be Yasu."
  • "Beatrice claims to be the Golden Witch."
  • "Kanon claims to love Jessica."
These are indisputable; these things were presented in-game as claims made, and the existence of those claims are evidence. They might be evidence that the underlying fact is true, but they might not be. The source could be mistaken. Or lying. Or drawing a valid conclusion from a faulty premise.

From these, we can just accept this evidence as fact (which you too often do, thus permitting things like "Claire is Yasu" or "Kanon loves Jessica," which are not what the evidence shows, only the conclusion the claim that is evidence is proposing), or we can be critical of it.

We should be critical of it, and we damn well should be critical of it in ep7. Why is this difficult?
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Old 2010-09-03, 11:43   Link #17143
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No, I'm sorry, but you have nothing to back that up. Here are the facts that you have: Claire claims to be Yasu, we are told Yasu exists, Yasu claims to be Beatrice, therefore Bernkastel claims that Claire = Beatrice = Yasu.
No, when Claire shows up, Bern gives her the option of being known by "Beato". Furthermore, the way Claire acts and interacts with Will independently of Bern makes it pretty clear that this is the Beato we knew from the first four episodes. Even if she is a copy, that doesn't negate her story or what she's saying.
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Old 2010-09-03, 12:07   Link #17144
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I have to at least agree in part with Renall. I think it pays to be suspicious of what is being hand-fed to us.
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Old 2010-09-03, 12:08   Link #17145
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
No, when Claire shows up, Bern gives her the option of being known by "Beato". Furthermore, the way Claire acts and interacts with Will independently of Bern makes it pretty clear that this is the Beato we knew from the first four episodes. Even if she is a copy, that doesn't negate her story or what she's saying.
Acting like someone is now a factual assertion of identity? It's a claim, nothing more. An inherently untrustworthy claim from an inherently untrustworthy source. We cannot simply accept it as true uncritically.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-09-03, 12:37   Link #17146
cmos
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Spoiler for Sorry.:
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:02   Link #17147
TehChron
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Yes, they are all trolling. Five episodes of trolling, goddamit Ryu, you bastard!
You don't see Beatrice, because it's supposed to be the true form of Beatrice, Yasu, telling the tale. Her appearance and name are given to her by Bern for those, who still don't get who she really is.



It doesn't matter. Why would "some true elements of the nature of things" leak is the question. Because the Illusion was destroyed - it was stated many times. It wasn't destroyed properly, the heart still existed, so the real truth didn't come out as it should, but our case is different.
For the love of god quit trolling them already. It's already plainly obvious what you're doing at this point.

You're either really eager to jump to a bunch of conclusions that are only vaguely if at all supported in the text, or you're just trolling people.

Your argument is that for some reason Bernkastel is an objective observer. She's not. In the Episode 6 ??? she specifically says her story will "Since I have no love, it's gonna be a bit weird", which already indicates that it's not going to be completely accurate.

Especially since, in regards to that very truth which you espouse, Ryukishi has actively forced down our throats that one needs love in order to "see" the truth. In that single sentence, Bernkastel disqualified her credibility in it's entirety.

There, the foundation for that interpretation is destroyed, and we can now return to your regular scheduled programming.
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:17   Link #17148
Will Wright
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Slightly off-topic but worth noting:
The gamefaqs "best game of the decade" contest is in its nominating stages.
...And people are nominating Umineko!
...Yeah yeah.
I don't think it's a game, but that's interesting. It does need support though, as it's currently a few nominations short.
If people want to help it to get into the contest, this is the link to nominate Umineko:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/nominate_entry
Make an account, nominate Umineko(for the pc) and let's cackle if Umineko wins a match.

More in topic, I believe that Claire is what Beatrice would be like in that world. It's not the same Beatrice, because a different set of circumstances creates a different person. But she is still the same Beatrice in a way. Kind of like Chick-Beatrice.
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:22   Link #17149
cmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Your argument is that for some reason Bernkastel is an objective observer. She's not. In the Episode 6 ??? she specifically says her story will "Since I have no love, it's gonna be a bit weird", which already indicates that it's not going to be completely accurate.
I'm sorry for not disregarding as trolling everything what we've been shown just because I don't like it and actually trying to see how it can fit into the tale.
Even if you assume that Tea Party is her story, which she claims it is not, "not completely accurate" doesn't mean "trolling, it's all lie".
You need love to see the truth of Beatrice. That's why Bern has lost the game. And that's why she used Will as her detective, who has enough love and thus capable of finding and destroying the heart of Beatrice in one game.
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:34   Link #17150
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
You need love to see the truth of Beatrice. That's why Bern has lost the game. And that's why she used Will as her detective, who has enough love and thus capable of finding and destroying the heart of Beatrice in one game.
So if Bernkastel has no love, how exactly was she able to find the truth? She has to know it to present it to Will, doesn't she?
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:38   Link #17151
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Slightly off-topic but worth noting:
The gamefaqs "best game of the decade" contest is in its nominating stages.
...And people are nominating Umineko!
...Yeah yeah.
I don't think it's a game, but that's interesting. It does need support though, as it's currently a few nominations short.
If people want to help it to get into the contest, this is the link to nominate Umineko:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/nominate_entry
Make an account, nominate Umineko(for the pc) and let's cackle if Umineko wins a match.
Mystery novels are games, right? Totally within bounds.


Quote:
I'm sorry for not disregarding as trolling everything what we've been shown just because I don't like it and actually trying to see how it can fit into the tale.
Even if you assume that Tea Party is her story, which she claims it is not, "not completely accurate" doesn't mean "trolling, it's all lie".
You need love to see the truth of Beatrice. That's why Bern has lost the game. And that's why she used Will as her detective, who has enough love and thus capable of finding and destroying the heart of Beatrice in one game.
Come now, weren't you just claiming that Bern found the one objective truth of Rokkenjimma in the Tea Party?

And not being completely accurate means one thing, by the way:

It's wrong, therefore it isn't the "one, true truth". By being inaccurate in any way, it completely invalidates it's credibility. Whats correct and what isnt is up to us to decide. Which means not accepting it at face value.
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:41   Link #17152
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Mystery novels are games, right? Totally within bounds.
Yes, but not video games. But who cares? If it gets in, it will be awesome.
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Old 2010-09-03, 13:58   Link #17153
cmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
So if Bernkastel has no love, how exactly was she able to find the truth? She has to know it to present it to Will, doesn't she?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Come now, weren't you just claiming that Bern found the one objective truth of Rokkenjimma in the Tea Party?
Featherine basically just told her the truth of Beatrice. She proclaimed her as the game master at the end of ep6. And you have to know that truth to be the GM. Truth of Beatrice != truth of what really happened, though it seems one (magically) leads to another in this game. Truth of what really happened was probably concealed until the moment the heart of Beatrice was destroyed. Only then Bern was able to show the Tea Party to troll Ange.

Quote:
And not being completely accurate means one thing
Not really. Not being completely accurate could just mean that she decided not to show their true motives and inner thoughts, showing only their actions.
However, the Reader is free to read things in a manner and with an intonation of her choosing.
She just placed her emphasis on the murders, not the motives and feelings.
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Old 2010-09-03, 14:02   Link #17154
LuckySovietStar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Spoiler for Sorry.:
I wonder how does this relate to Golden Truth. Ryu forgot about it? Or there was no such thing as "Golden Truth" at this point in his mind?
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Old 2010-09-03, 14:11   Link #17155
Renall
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Or golden truth can't be trusted.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-09-03, 14:30   Link #17156
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Featherine basically just told her the truth of Beatrice. She proclaimed her as the game master at the end of ep6. And you have to know that truth to be the GM. Truth of Beatrice != truth of what really happened, though it seems one (magically) leads to another in this game. Truth of what really happened was probably concealed until the moment the heart of Beatrice was destroyed. Only then Bern was able to show the Tea Party to troll Ange.
Except Bern outright stated she wasn't the Game Master of Episode 7

Quote:
Not really. Not being completely accurate could just mean that she decided not to show their true motives and inner thoughts, showing only their actions.
However, the Reader is free to read things in a manner and with an intonation of her choosing.
She just placed her emphasis on the murders, not the motives and feelings.
She placed her emphasis on being as trolltastic as she possibly could.

At any rate, what I was saying that being inaccurate meant that her "truth" is itself not true to the actual events. It's kind of literally how the relationship between factual accuracy and reality works.
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Old 2010-09-03, 14:51   Link #17157
cmos
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Except Bern outright stated she wasn't the Game Master of Episode 7
It seems that it's you who is trolling me. Did you even read ep7 or just spoilers?
She was the GM for the main game, but she claims that Tea Party isn't her story, but just the truth.
Main game:
「時間の無駄だから話を進めるわ。ライト。このゲームに挑みなさい。ゲームマスター、ベルンカステルの 名において、このゲームにあなたを招待してあげるわ。」
「わかってる。ゲームマスターとして、あんたに力を与えるわ。金蔵から真実を得られるようにね 。」
Tea Party:
「あんたも、そして理御も。二人とも勘違いをしているわ。私は、ゲームマスターなんかじゃない。この物 語も、私が紡いだものなんかじゃない。」

And in ???? she says that she hasn't done enough gamemastering yet, she only did Beato's funeral and dragged the guts (which was just her duty, see end of ep6-7, no fun in it). And now she really intends to troll everyone to death in her next story:
「私、まだ全然ゲームマスターをやっていないのよ?私はベアトの葬儀をやっただけ。そしてハラワタ を引き摺り出しただけ。まだ、何にもやっちゃいない。」
「さぁ、ベアトのゲーム盤の駒たち? 私を最高に楽しませる、最高に残虐な物語を紡がせてあげるわ。慄 きなさい、約束された絶対の運命を。奇跡の魔女、ベルンカステルの名において。そして、ベアトのゲ ームの、最後のゲームマスターとして宣言するわ。」

Come back when you read it.
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Old 2010-09-03, 15:55   Link #17158
erneiz_hyde
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I still stand by the idea that ep.7 tea party is a complete lie on the basis that red truth was incomplete and Bernkastel was just epically trolling everyone. I mean, come on...If she's trolling with anything, then this troll is the most successful ever. Why everyone just accepts it at face value that the tea party is any truth? Though I can argue that she still showed the truth in a way: complete negation of the negative is also the truth. Which means the truth is anything NOT in the tea party.
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Old 2010-09-03, 16:02   Link #17159
Renall
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So uh here's a question about this Baby From 19 Years Ago that suddenly bugged me:

Natsuhi. When did Kinzo ever say it was okay for you to engrave the One-winged Eagle into your heart? Those were just the words of the Kinzo from your delusions, weren't they? ......You know, the real Kinzo... Not once in his entire life did he ever trust you from the bottom of his heart, and not once did he ever consider letting you bear the family crest!

You know who says that? Bern says that. Bernkastel. The same Bernkastel relying so hard on this Baby From 19 Years Ago shlock in ep7.

Call me crazy, but giving your beloved child and chosen heir to Natsuhi is "trusting" her, and in a way, it is "bearing the eagle" in that it's being granted a child who bears Kinzo's blood. Remember that, at the time, she hadn't earned that herself by becoming pregnant. She was just some lady Kinzo'd bought for his son.

Isn't giving her this super special responsibility a little bit at odds with the claim that Kinzo never trusted her or considered her warmly?
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-09-03, 16:26   Link #17160
erneiz_hyde
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I think Natsuhi views Kinzo giving a child to her as a disgrace. She thinks the giving is like Kinzo saying:"You are bought to our family and you can't even fulfill the role of a borrowed womb? Whatever, here's a child. Raise it so you at least could be of some use".

Edit: though yes, that really didn't explain much why would he entrust a dearest child to Natsuhi. Why not just give the child to Kumasawa? Is it because Kinzo really planned to make that child the successor so that child must be raised by an Ushiromiya? And at the time the only female Ushiromiya around that he can barely trust at all is Natsuhi (it has been shown that Kinzo has negative disposition against Eva).
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